# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 45
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/881 "2012-04-25T15:48:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > In the way that some of Zimmerman’s statements contradict his other statements. Well, this is an actual tautology. Which means it’s not at all useful in understanding what you’re thinking of. Would you please identify two of Zimmerman’s statements which contradict each other? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/882 "2012-04-25T15:52:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You’re reading way too much into what I’m writing (again). > > Okay, but it should be noted that he never says this dismissal was due to expungement. He staked his opinion on the “run-of-the-millness” of the arrests themselves. > > To date, no one associated with the State has indicated Zimmerman’s priors were expunged. So insisting that they were in the absence of that confirmation makes as much sense as insisting that Zimmerman weighs 250 lbs despite his current appearance. Do you agree with this? I mean, it’s not as though its impossible that Zimmerman weighs that much. He could simply have very dense bones. No, I don’t agree that the two are at the same level of likelihood. For Zimmerman to look like he does and weigh 250 pounds would be a fundamental disconnect in human biology. For Zimmerman’s record to be expunged, and no official comment to be made about it isn’t particularly unusual, given the fact that an accused criminal defendant cannot claim the benefits of expungement. I agree, however, that the lack of mention by other media sources creates at least some question. I wouldn’t call it a closed issue, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/883 "2012-04-25T16:10:53Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Probably not. Plus how do you know he hasn’t already called the police on one of his neighbors. Lot of neighbors there. Here’s an encounter with one of them > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by NY Times > > A 17-year-old African-American, Teontae Amie, who lives at the Retreat, recalled that Mr. Zimmerman once wrongly accused his friend of stealing a bike. “When you see him, you think automatically that he might try something,” said Teontae, who added that he kept his distance from the neighborhood watch coordinator. > > He doesn’t call 911 on all teens. Just some of them. Race seems to be a critaria. It is interesting the way you assume that Teontae’s friend is African-American. Apparently you are the one doing the profiling. You will also note that it doesn’t mention whether Zimmerman called the police or if Teontae’s friend was a resident. BTW, the NY Times article you didn’t link to is very interesting. [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?\_r=1&pagewanted=1&ref=jenniferpreston](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1&ref=jenniferpreston) > [@](#): > > Adding to the uncertainty and flux was the sense among some residents that this secured community was no longer so secure. There had been burglaries; at least seven in 2011, according to police reports. Strangers had started showing up, said Frank Taaffe, 55, a marketing specialist, originally from the Bronx, who works out of his home in the Retreat. He made it clear that he was not talking about just any strangers. > “There were Trayvon-like dudes with their pants down,” Mr. Taaffe said. BTW, They also have something relevant on the cellphone discussion. > [@](#): > > Here even Mr. Zimmerman acknowledges that there is some confusion. He told an Orlando news station that George was reaching for his cellphone when Trayvon punched him. But, in a later interview with The New York Times, he said that he was unsure whether his son made that movement and that he might have conflated news media reports with what he thought his son may have told him. > [@](#): > > Here is an article favoarble to Zimmerman. Read the 2nd paragaph. > > [Trayvon Martin Shooter Zimmerman's Audio Tapes Show Calm - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooter-zimmermans-911-audio-tapes/) > > 5 of his last 7 calls were suspicious persons. All black. Here is the actual paragraph > [@](#): > > Since August 2011, Zimmerman has called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, t\*\*hough never mentioning race until after he was asked to describe the characters. \*\* These five calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies. Based on Taaffe’s quote. Zimmerman may be profiling, but it was an accurate profile. If there aren’t strange white people wondering through Zimmerman’s neighborhood, is that Zimmerman’s fault? Should he start hassling white residents to make his quota. You should read the NY times article. There is zero indication of racial animus in his background. This article indicates a man that actually protects black people and protests unfair treatment of them. [http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-06/news/31296359\_1\_sherman-ware-justin-collison-robert-zimmerman](http://articles.nydailynews.com/2012-04-06/news/31296359_1_sherman-ware-justin-collison-robert-zimmerman) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/884 "2012-04-25T16:14:04Z")
If the shooting was unwitnessed by no one except Zimmerman, and no one except Zimmerman observed the start of the altercation, then it wouldn’t take a lot of ingenuity to create a lie that matches with the evidence. In fact, it would very be easy to do. If Zimmerman was the agressor, then all he’d have to do was lie about being the agressor and claim that it was the kid who started it. Even 5 year-olds can come up with “He started it!” within seconds of being caught in a fight. If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then all he’d have to do was lie about assaulting Martin and claim that it was the kid who assaulted _him_. If Zimmerman brandished his weapon, then all he’d have to do was lie about it and say he was reaching for his phone instead. 1.5 hours is more than enough time for him to craft together a non-incriminating lie that is tough to disprove. The State seems to have evidence that his narrative is not airtight, though. We haven’t seen this evidence, so I don’t know why folks keep insisting Zimmerman’s statement isn’t contradicted by anything. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/885 "2012-04-25T16:18:23Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Would you please identify two of Zimmerman’s statements which contradict each other? > **[StockExaminer - AI-Powered Stock Chatbot](https://examiner.com)** > > Discover Stock Examiner, the AI-powered chatbot delivering instant, interactive stock charts, real-time financials, breaking news, stock screeners, and more—all in one seamless experience. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s words to Trayvon’s parents Friday were: > “I’m sorry for the loss of your son. I did not know how old he was. I thought he was a little bit younger than I am. And I did not know if he was armed or not.” > Those words conflict with a 911 call Zimmerman made moments before he shot and killed Trayvon. > > **911 operator:** > > “How old would you say he [Trayvon] is?” > > **Zimmerman:** > > “He’s got something on his shirt. > > “About like his late teens.” > > **911 operator:** > > “Late teens? OK.” Let pedantry begin. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/886 "2012-04-25T16:26:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The State seems to have evidence that his narrative is not airtight, though. We haven’t seen this evidence, so I don’t know why folks keep insisting Zimmerman’s statement isn’t contradicted by anything. Because, as you’ll be shocked to learn, we haven’t seen this evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/887 "2012-04-25T16:27:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If the shooting was unwitnessed by no one except Zimmerman, and no one except Zimmerman observed the start of the altercation, then it wouldn’t take a lot of ingenuity to create a lie that matches with the evidence. In fact, it would very be easy to do. That would presuppose that Zimmerman knew no one witnessed things. With dozens of people living within short distance of the altercation, that’s not a good supposition. And as we know now quite a few people witnessed portions of it. > [@](#): > > 1.5 hours is more than enough time for him to craft together a non-incriminating lie that is tough to disprove. A few minutes after the incident Zimmerman said he called and called for help and no one helped. If he’s lying, he’s pretty fleet wouldn’t you say? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/888 "2012-04-25T16:27:48Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > [StockExaminer - AI-Powered Stock Chatbot](http://www.examiner.com/article/george-zimmerman-s-testimony-court-contradicts-what-he-said-on-911-callLet) pedantry begin. Well, it’s possible to reconcile the two statements, but I agree they contradict each other on their face. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/889 "2012-04-25T16:36:23Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If the shooting was unwitnessed by no one except Zimmerman, and no one except Zimmerman observed the start of the altercation, then it wouldn’t take a lot of ingenuity to create a lie that matches with the evidence. In fact, it would very be easy to do. > > If Zimmerman was the agressor, then all he’d have to do was lie about being the agressor and claim that it was the kid who started it. Even 5 year-olds can come up with “He started it!” within seconds of being caught in a fight. > > If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then all he’d have to do was lie about assaulting Martin and claim that it was the kid who assaulted _him_. > > If Zimmerman brandished his weapon, then all he’d have to do was lie about it and say he was reaching for his phone instead. > > 1.5 hours is more than enough time for him to craft together a non-incriminating lie that is tough to disprove. Which, taken together, is an excellent illustration of why the SYG law, _genus_ Florida, is a poor idea. Add all that to the requirement that before you can be prosecuted, arrested, or even detained in custody, the police must be able to show probable cause that your use of force was unlawful. Talk about an uphill climb. > [@](#): > > The State seems to have evidence that his narrative is not airtight, though. We haven’t seen this evidence, so I don’t know why folks keep insisting Zimmerman’s statement isn’t contradicted by anything. I suspect they mean, “…isn’t contradicted by anything we know.” I expect the state would not have charged second degree without something, so I expect that they have something. But without knowing what it is, it’s difficult to assess it. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/890 "2012-04-25T16:45:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is interesting the way you assume that Teontae’s friend is African-American. I knew you’d assume this. Goes to unfounded accusations(Zimmerman 's), your Honor. > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > BTW, the NY Times article you didn’t link to is very interesting. Teontae’ Amie is a pretty unique name. No need to link. I knew you’d find it. I already knew about the burglaries. Taafe’s quote only shows that Taafe noticed the strange **Black** people not all strange people. The fact that Zimmerman doesn’t mention race until asked doesn’t negate the fact that all his suspicious persons were black. And once again I’m not claiming racial animus, just profiling. Probably not so accurate since the one time he decides to take action, he ends up killing an innocent [del]boy[/del] teenager. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/891 "2012-04-25T17:03:40Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > This comes up again and again. > > What is the minimum it takes to come up with a really good lie? Potentially it can take days. You have to figure out what the police know and might find out and come up with a simple, internally consistent story that doesn’t contradict any of it. Most people can’t even tell the truth consistently ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/892 "2012-04-25T17:38:35Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If the shooting was unwitnessed by no one except Zimmerman, and no one except Zimmerman observed the start of the altercation, then it wouldn’t take a lot of ingenuity to create a lie that matches with the evidence. In fact, it would very be easy to do. > > If Zimmerman was the agressor, then all he’d have to do was lie about being the agressor and claim that it was the kid who started it. Even 5 year-olds can come up with “He started it!” within seconds of being caught in a fight. > > If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then all he’d have to do was lie about assaulting Martin and claim that it was the kid who assaulted _him_. > > If Zimmerman brandished his weapon, then all he’d have to do was lie about it and say he was reaching for his phone instead. > > 1.5 hours is more than enough time for him to craft together a non-incriminating lie that is tough to disprove. > > The State seems to have evidence that his narrative is not airtight, though. We haven’t seen this evidence, so I don’t know why folks keep insisting Zimmerman’s statement isn’t contradicted by anything. What reason are you claiming for the prosecution not using any of that evidence in their probable cause affidavit? There has been a lot of criticism on the affidavit. Keep in mind that O’Mara is getting all of the state’s evidence Friday. If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then it is potentially going to be very hard to reconcile with the autopsy and the condition of Martin and Zimmerman’s clothing. Also, if Zimmerman knew he was guilty and only had what you think is a rather porous lie, then why didn’t he refuse to give a statement until he had time to construct a better story. His actions are not those of a guilty man, but a rather stupid innocent man. If Zimmerman intentionally murdered Martin, then he would have to know it by definition. If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then it is potentially going to be very hard to reconcile with the autopsy and the condition of Martin and Zimmerman’s clothing. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/893 "2012-04-25T17:43:40Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If Zimmerman assaulted Martin, then it is potentially going to be very hard to reconcile with the autopsy and the condition of Martin and Zimmerman’s clothing. Nah, not really. If Zimmerman grabbed Martin’s arm and tried to restrain him until the police arrived, that is assault. If Martin struck him because if this, that would be self defense. Tell me, if that was the assault that started the fight, what would show on either persons clothes or in the autopsy result? What evidence would show up that he grabbed Martin’s arm first. Remember assault is not equal to actually causing physical injury. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/894 "2012-04-25T17:59:43Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What reason are you claiming for the prosecution not using any of that evidence in their probable cause affidavit? There has been a lot of criticism on the affidavit. Keep in mind that O’Mara is getting all of the state’s evidence Friday. Because the prosecution’s job is not to help the defense. The prosecution put forth a very, very thin affidavit, but they know that Zimmerman is going to get a PC hearing anyway, so they alleged only the minimum (perhaps less than the minimum) required. Do not draw the conclusion that this means that’s all they have. There is no reason for them to show all their cards in a PC affidavit, and plenty of reasons not to. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/895 "2012-04-25T18:00:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Nah, not really. If Zimmerman grabbed Martin’s arm and tried to restrain him until the police arrived, that is assault. Well… battery, actually. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/896 "2012-04-25T18:07:03Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > BTW, They also have something relevant on the cellphone discussion. > > > [@](#): > > > > Here even Mr. Zimmerman acknowledges that there is some confusion. He told an Orlando news station that George was reaching for his cellphone when Trayvon punched him. But, in a later interview with The New York Times, he said that he was unsure whether his son made that movement and that he might have conflated news media reports with what he thought his son may have told him. So you didn’t believe him before, but you believe him now? :dubious: I don’t know why you make such a big deal about lying. It’s not like Zimmerman needed to convince people he didn’t shoot Trayvon, or that he wasn’t at the scene. He didn’t need to plot the perfect murder here. It’s typical human behavior to consider one’s own actions and feelings to be right and reasonable. Very easy to rationalize that, internalize that, and testify to that convincingly. We see it play out right here on this message board all the time. Most people here argue and disagree in good faith, because they want to believe what they are saying is true, even if it turns out to be wrong. Only sociopaths don’t feel the need to believe they are good people who do what’s right. I’m sure he now believes he did the only thing he could have done under the circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/897 "2012-04-25T18:07:55Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well… battery, actually. Oh, right. But still. I don’t know what physical evidence would show as a result, or what would need to be reconciled with the condition of their clothes and/or the autopsy results if that had indeed happened. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/898 "2012-04-25T18:17:15Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I suspect they mean, “…isn’t contradicted by anything we know.” Its disingenuous to insist on saying Zimmerman’s statement isn’t contradicted by anything that we know about, when the specifics that led to Zimmerman’s arrest have been withheld from the public pending the trial. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/899 "2012-04-25T18:17:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It depends greatly on the situation. > > As a general rule, I’d opine that the key is coming up with a good lie quickly that fits all the verifiable information. That’s why locking in an early statement is key. It allows the police to get the story, then check it against evidence, and then start feeding back bits of evidence (both true and made up) to the witness to see if, and by how much, the story changes. So would you agree that it would be quite foolish for Zimmerman to immediately give a statement to police if he intentionally killed Martin? Especially since he was a Criminal Justice Major and only a few hours from his degree from what I read. I checked the requirements at Seminole State College: [http://www.seminolestate.edu/criminal-justice/college-credit/asdegree/crim-as.php](http://www.seminolestate.edu/criminal-justice/college-credit/asdegree/crim-as.php) > [@](#): > > Criminal Investigation > The fundamental principles, concepts and theory of investigation, interviews, interrogations, surveillance and sources of information, case preparations, problems in criminal investigation and investigative techniques of specific crimes are explored in this course. > [@](#): > > Criminal Law > This course identifies and defines principles and doctrines of law with emphasis on Florida Criminal and Civil Statutes that provide sanctions for inappropriate behavior within our society. Some of the electives might be useful also: Introduction to Murder - CCJ1629 Introduction to CSI - CJE1640 ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/900 "2012-04-25T18:24:48Z")
So you might say that his schooling has trained him for exactly what he needs to do to get away with something like this, right? He must be aware of the law then and what he would need to say to justify his actions to the police, I would think. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=44) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=46)