# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 452
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9023 "2012-12-09T20:06:59Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Since you mentioned it, isn’t that assault with a deadly weapon? Well the reason it sticks in my mind is that Zimmerman thinks Martin may have had an object in his hand at some point because he searches Martin after he gets up. Yes, it would be considered a weapon of sorts but I haven’t heard ANYTHING about the can. It’s like it never existed. I would think it would have been mentioned in some way. It doesn’t sound like it was tested for DNA or anything which, given the cut on his face, would have shown up. And yes, it would certainly bolster Zimmerman’s story but his face and head are well documented so it’s not like we don’t know he got his ass kicked. It doesn’t take much contact with a solid object to scare the crap out of someone. I’ve seen people knocked out without any signs of being struck in the head. It doesn’t take much. Actually, having revisited his color photograph it appears there are 3 marks on his face that look the same. One above his right eye on his forehead, one to the right of his nose on his left cheek, and the area of his nose that is swollen. Martin may have done this with the ice tea. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9024 "2012-12-09T20:08:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Something that I’ve wondered about the whole time is where the can of ice tea is located in the crime scene. The mark on the right side of Zimmerman’s nose and the subsequent swelling suggests he was hit with the edge of the can. I would expect Martin to use the can in a street fight with no rules. I mention this in case it comes up at trial and not as a debate point. Crime scene photo of fruit juice can. It appears to be on police lab tech plastic sheet??? If it is, then it was placed there by SPD. [http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSC\_0043.jpg](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSC_0043.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9025 "2012-12-09T20:18:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Crime scene photo of fruit juice can. It appears to be on police lab tech plastic sheet??? If it is, then it was placed there by SPD. > > [http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSC\_0043.jpg](http://www.wtsp.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/photogallery/255685/DSC_0043.jpg) yah, saw that. No idea where it was located or the condition of the can. kind of odd that Zimmerman has matching thin cuts on his face. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9026 "2012-12-09T21:05:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It is pretty damned relentless for someone who is supposedly having his head and face whacked and then subjected to smothering. The yelling was about 5 to 8 seconds. The shot was fired at 41 seconds. Your definition of relentless is about 12% to 20% of the time. We still don’t know how much yelling before the 911 call occured. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9027 "2012-12-09T21:54:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So if, despite all that evidence, he wins the SYG hearing, what will you say? I still agree with what Jeralyn Merritt said on talkleft that the Judge won’t take the flak for acquitting Zimmerman. The preponderance of the evidence standard gives her enough wiggle room to let this go to a jury and let them take the flak. BTW. Is it still your position that the prosecution still has enough evidence to justify the 2nd degree murder charge? You were quite adamant that the prosecution had enough evidence before discovery started. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9028 "2012-12-09T22:05:11Z")
BTW, there is another hearing at 9AM on Tuesday. [http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/73-notice-of-hearing-december-11-2012](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/73-notice-of-hearing-december-11-2012) ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9029 "2012-12-09T23:12:25Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > BTW, there is another hearing at 9AM on Tuesday. > > [http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/73-notice-of-hearing-december-11-2012](http://gzlegalcase.com/index.php/court-documents/73-notice-of-hearing-december-11-2012) I like the digs Omara puts in there regarding the State’s failure to turn over exculpatory evidence. Apparently, due to something called Brady. you’re supposed to turn it over in a timely fashion, and not have the defense stumble upon it by accident. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9030 "2012-12-10T02:12:20Z")
> **['A Struggle Ensued': Lynch Mob Justice In Florida](https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/04/a_scuffle_ensued_lynch_mob_justice_in_florida.html)** > > From time to time the U.S. is engaged in its popular, charming pastime, following criminal cases. Once the special hobby of retirees who flooded the courthouses, since cable TV and the Internet, anyone can participate in these modern versions of... George Zimmerman might yet end up a very rich man. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9031 "2012-12-10T02:51:49Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > I like the digs Omara puts in there regarding the State’s failure to turn over exculpatory evidence. Apparently, due to something called Brady. you’re supposed to turn it over in a timely fashion, and not have the defense stumble upon it by accident. I haven’t read through all of them but the defense appears to be on top of things. It should be interesting to see the text messages Martin was sending and receiving. Of note is a request to interview the first arriving officer to verify that Zimmerman told him he was yelling for help during the fight. This precedes any knowledge the yells were captured on the 911 call. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9032 "2012-12-10T03:10:26Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I still agree with what Jeralyn Merritt said on talkleft that the Judge won’t take the flak for acquitting Zimmerman. The preponderance of the evidence standard gives her enough wiggle room to let this go to a jury and let them take the flak. > > BTW. Is it still your position that the prosecution still has enough evidence to justify the 2nd degree murder charge? You were quite adamant that the prosecution had enough evidence before discovery started. Well, I have speculated that there is additional evidence, although I don’t know that I was adamant in that speculation. I have been adamant in the claim that the currently-public evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction for second-degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9033 "2012-12-10T03:11:32Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > [http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/a\_scuffle\_ensued\_lynch\_mob\_justice\_in\_florida.html](http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/04/a_scuffle_ensued_lynch_mob_justice_in_florida.html) > > George Zimmerman might yet end up a very rich man. What he needs is the same amount of news publicity apologizing for the hatchet job done on him if he’s acquitted of all charges. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9034 "2012-12-10T03:18:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I have speculated that there is additional evidence, although I don’t know that I was adamant in that speculation. > > I have been adamant in the claim that the currently-public evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction for second-degree murder. Maybe I’m reading it wrong but it appears that the State has placed a great deal of importance on Dee Dee’s testimony. If it turns out they don’t have anything more than what has been made public is this going to turn into another Duke Lacrosse problem for the prosecutor? I’m not seeing it yet but it sure looks deliberately sloppy to me. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9035 "2012-12-10T05:21:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, I have speculated that there is additional evidence, although I don’t know that I was adamant in that speculation. > > I have been adamant in the claim that the currently-public evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction for second-degree murder. As I recall you were quite indignant when some posters suggesting that Angela Corey was actually over charging in the Zimmerman case and she wouldn’t file charges unless she had evidence to back it up. As far as I can tell we have seen all the evidence mentioned in her probable cause affidavit. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9036 "2012-12-10T13:58:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have been adamant in the claim that the currently-public evidence is insufficient to sustain a conviction for second-degree murder. Apologies if this has been raised before (I haven’t read all 181 pages of this thread), but could it be the case that Corey charged Zimmerman with second degree murder rather than manslaughter _because_ the evidence is insufficient for that crime? In this way, the public demand for investigation and trial (pending the SYG hearing) is satisfied, but Zimmerman will almost certainly be acquitted. This might be a win-win for the State’s Attorney’s office. If this is plausible, is this prosecutorial misconduct? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9037 "2012-12-10T16:04:27Z")
After talking to my nurse cousin, you have to wonder if Zimmerman was administered an anti inflammatory drug by the EMT, which usually prevents the severe swelling of blunt force trauma. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9038 "2012-12-10T16:32:37Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Maybe I’m reading it wrong but it appears that the State has placed a great deal of importance on Dee Dee’s testimony… I read it the same way. DeeDee/witness 8 is the only witness, that the prosecution has admitted that they have, who’s testimony challenges GZ story. DeeDee is a reluctant witness. She didn’t come forward on her own. IIRC, Crump had her tracked down via her cellphone. Her (boy)friend is confronting a “creepy” guy and that’s the last she hears from him. (Oh well, he’ll get back to her eventually. What could possibly have gone wrong?). Even after TM’s death was publically reported, DeeDee didn’t come forward on her own. Maybe she was scared, didn’t want to get involved, didn’t care, forgot who she was talking to, who knows? Her published interview with someone from the prosecutors office appeared to be coaxed and she didn’t seem to be able to follow the script (my opinion). Her unpublished interview with Crump and a half dozen Martin family members and friends may not help the prosecutions case because of comments made by any of those involved. Did they coax her? Did they threaten to expose her to the lynch-mob media, Black Panthers, or Spike Lee if she refused to cooperate (properly)? Crump gave the SA office a heavily edited version of that interview and it’s reported to only include recording for half of the time she was interviewed??? The defense has not recieved that evidence yet but is asking the judge to force Crump to turn over the whole recording and the original recording device. If DeeDee doesn’t testify, I don’t believe the prosecution has a case of 2nd or manslaughter against GZ. If DeeDee falls apart under cross-examination, there is, currently, no other evidence that disproves GZ version or proves that something else actually happened that night. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9039 "2012-12-10T17:59:32Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > As I recall you were quite indignant when some posters suggesting that Angela Corey was actually over charging in the Zimmerman case and she wouldn’t file charges unless she had evidence to back it up. As far as I can tell we have seen all the evidence mentioned in her probable cause affidavit. I’d be happy to re-read any post you care to point me to for signs of indignance. But my view is simply the supposition that Corey, as a veteran and presumptively honest prosecutor, would not file such charges unless she knew she had at least some colorable factual and legal argument to support those charges. I’m open to the idea that this assumption is in error, but I’d like to wait until trial before declaring that no public evidence equals no actual evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9040 "2012-12-10T18:18:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Apologies if this has been raised before (I haven’t read all 181 pages of this thread), but could it be the case that Corey charged Zimmerman with second degree murder rather than manslaughter _because_ the evidence is insufficient for that crime? In this way, the public demand for investigation and trial (pending the SYG hearing) is satisfied, but Zimmerman will almost certainly be acquitted. This might be a win-win for the State’s Attorney’s office. > > If this is plausible, is this prosecutorial misconduct? If that happened, it would amount to prosecutorial misconduct. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2012, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9041 "2012-12-10T23:44:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > If that happened, it would amount to prosecutorial misconduct. to what extent can the prosecution delay information on a regular basis and not be considered misconduct. Is this a normal ploy? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2012, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9042 "2012-12-11T03:01:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’d be happy to re-read any post you care to point me to for signs of indignance. But my view is simply the supposition that Corey, as a veteran and presumptively honest prosecutor, would not file such charges unless she knew she had at least some colorable factual and legal argument to support those charges. I’m open to the idea that this assumption is in error, but I’d like to wait until trial before declaring that no public evidence equals no actual evidence. I only had a chance to review a few of your posts: #42 04-12-2012, 10:48 AM Bricker And Full Contact Origami SDSAB Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 36,000 Quote: Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy considering he’s been arrested at this point for it, to you and your “knowledge” of the law i say don’t quit your day job. armchair wikipedia laws and trying to philosophically apply them however you want. he’s in jail for this now. Sure. But I have no idea if he actually got a bloody nose or not, and I have no idea if he got the bloody nose because he grabbed Martin and tried to physically restrain him first or not. Ms. Corey does, or at least she has access to a wealth of evidence that I don’t, evidence from which she can decide what she can likely prove to a jury. Lacking that evidence, all I can say is IF Zimmerman merely approached Martin and demanded of him, “What are you doing here?” and if Martin responded to that question by punching Zimmerman hard enough to bloody his nose, then the law says that Zimmerman may use deadly force to protect himself. Ms. Corey’s decision to charge Zimmerman strongly suggests that the scenario I just laid out didn’t happen. #44 04-12-2012, 10:50 AM Bricker And Full Contact Origami SDSAB Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 36,000 Quote: Originally Posted by Jas09 Exactly as it should be. And now a jury can decide if it believes Zimmerman’s story. The outrage was (at least for me) because for quite some time it appeared that Zimmerman’s story would never be tested by a jury of his peers but merely taken as true by the investigators. Well, even before he gets to a jury, Florida law gives him the right to ask a judge to determine if probable cause exists. However, I’d be very surprised at this point to learn that Corey’s team did not have enough evidence to support probable cause. But I’d also be very interested in seeing it; it amounts to free early discovery for the defense. 04-12-2012, 10:55 AM Bricker And Full Contact Origami SDSAB Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 36,000 Quote: Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy you’re the same dude who said he couldn’t be detained (he was) and said he can’t be arrested (he was). clearly “stand your ground” does not apply to zimmerman, otherwise he’d be free right now. What I said was that he couldn’t be detained without probable cause to believe the force he used was unlawful. And that he couldn’t be arrested without probable cause to believe the force he used was unlawful. And both of those are absolutely accurate statements of the law. Indeed, in the information Ms. Corey will file, she will allege that she has sufficient facts to show probable cause that the force used was unlawful. #49 04-12-2012, 10:59 AM Bricker And Full Contact Origami SDSAB Join Date: Dec 1999 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 36,000 Quote: Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy the fact zimmerman was armed, had been skulking around following martin noticed for enough time that martin expressed fear to his gf and accelerated his pace to get away from the strange stalking man who didn’t identify himself in any way, shape or form… yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down. jesus. that’s why he’s in jail. on what planet do you think you can, in the dark, hunt down kids in the night and chase them for blocks and follow them and run after them with guns and not identify yourself and NOT expect some kind of self defense to factor in? I’m sorry, but that’s not the case. He’s in jail because there is evidence --which I haven’t seen, but which must exist – to believe the force he used was ulawful. He is not in jail because, as you so cogently phrase it, “Yeah, you get to kick that guy’s ass when the chases you down.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=451) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=453)