# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 454
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9063 "2012-12-12T02:06:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. And that’s still my opinion. It may turn out that I was mistaken, but I felt then, and feel now, that she must be aware of some other facts, not yet public, that support second-degree murder. Under Florida laws (and if such facts are not telephone records), is the prosecution allowed to withhold these facts from defense, and thus from public record? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9064 "2012-12-12T02:07:02Z")
The problem appears to be that no one else, perhaps even her own investigators, the SPD, has found any evidence for second degree murder. if the evidence is from the echoes in her own mind than it’s going to be difficult to get a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9065 "2012-12-12T05:06:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. And that’s still my opinion. It may turn out that I was mistaken, but I felt then, and feel now, that she must be aware of some other facts, not yet public, that support second-degree murder. Ok, what could Corey have known on April 11th that would justify the charges? We haven’t seen all the evidence, but it should be referenced in the evidence lists. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9066 "2012-12-12T05:23:07Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do understand that according to Florida laws, all evidence prosecution has to be released to defense, and after that all evidence save phone records has to be released to the public. Thus unless Zimmerman sent a text saying “I shot him cuz he looked at me funny.”, the prosecution doesn’t have nearly enough. That doesn’t seem likely. Unless he had a Virgin Mobile account, The texts would only be retained for a few days. [http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-location-tracking-request-response-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart](http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-location-tracking-request-response-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart) The only alternative would be that someone he texted the confession to passed it along to the police. Even then it is easy to spoof the number on a text message. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9067 "2012-12-12T06:27:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You do understand that according to Florida laws, all evidence prosecution has to be released to defense, and after that all evidence save phone records has to be released to the public. Thus unless Zimmerman sent a text saying “I shot him cuz he looked at me funny.”, the prosecution doesn’t have nearly enough. As I have speculated earlier, a text message that said he (Zimmerman) wasn’t afraid of Martin could negate the claim of self-defense. And if it went on to express hatred or malice towards the victim, it could establish the missing element necessary for second degree. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9068 "2012-12-12T06:32:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That doesn’t seem likely. Unless he had a Virgin Mobile account, The texts would only be retained for a few days. > > [Cell Phone Location Tracking Request Response — Cell Phone Company Data Retention Chart | American Civil Liberties Union](http://www.aclu.org/cell-phone-location-tracking-request-response-cell-phone-company-data-retention-chart) > > The only alternative would be that someone he texted the confession to passed it along to the police. Even then it is easy to spoof the number on a text message. Who cares? That’s an argument about the weight of evidence, not about its existence. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9069 "2012-12-12T06:56:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > As I have speculated earlier, a text message that said he (Zimmerman) wasn’t afraid of Martin could negate the claim of self-defense. > > And if it went on to express hatred or malice towards the victim, it could establish the missing element necessary for second degree. So then that’s about the only thing possible that would justify the charge… Nothing else left. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9070 "2012-12-12T14:00:16Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So then that’s about the only thing possible that would justify the charge… Nothing else left. Not that I can think of – which may be a failure of my imagination, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9071 "2012-12-12T15:52:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So then that’s about the only thing possible that would justify the charge… Nothing else left. Just because individuals on a message board (who aren’t poring over the case daily) can’t think of what may be left doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Perhaps there is nothing, perhaps there is. The only thing I’m saying is that I find it odd that Corey would pursue a murder charge based on the publicly available evidence. One way to reconcile that oddity is that there is something still not publicly available that is significant. Is it cell phone records? Possibly. I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9072 "2012-12-12T16:31:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Ok, what could Corey have known on April 11th that would justify the charges? We haven’t seen all the evidence, but it should be referenced in the evidence lists. Since the defense is asking the court to force the prosecution and Crump to turn over evidence, I’m not sure you can assume that all the evidence is referenced in the evidence lists. Corey “may/might” be holding something back until some time closer to the actual start of trial??? That evidence, whatever it could be, could change a lot of minds about what happened that night. “IF” any such evidence exists. The FBI has already conducted their investigation into possible racist connections and possible civil rights violations and found none. GZ wasn’t intending to murder hoodie wearers, black people, young people, watermelon fruit juice drinkers, peeping toms, or suspicious people. IMHO, as things stand now, I’m not seeing evidence of 2nd degree. I’m not seeing a case for a manslaughter conviction either (but juries can be a crap shoot). Fla law allows for the use of lethal force if someone believes their life is in immediate danger. GZ was being beaten. He says he was in fear for his life. There is no admissable evidence, so far, that this was not, or could not, have been GZ motivation to save his own life by shooting TM. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9073 "2012-12-12T16:42:50Z")
> [@Mgalindo13](#): > > The only thing I’m saying is that I find it odd that Corey would pursue a murder charge based on the publicly available evidence. One way to reconcile that oddity is that there is something still not publicly available that is significant. It is quite easy to understand her actions if you assume the Governor told her to arrest Zimmerman before rioting started. The situation improved a lot after Zimmerman was arrested, so one could contend that their action was effective. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9074 "2012-12-12T16:49:15Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is quite easy to understand her actions if you assume the Governor told her to arrest Zimmerman before rioting started. The situation improved a lot after Zimmerman was arrested, so one could contend that their action was effective. There’s actually a very, very long list of assumptions you have to pick from if we’re just gonna start doing that.. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9075 "2012-12-12T16:52:36Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Since the defense is asking the court to force the prosecution and Crump to turn over evidence, I’m not sure you can assume that all the evidence is referenced in the evidence lists. Corey “may/might” be holding something back until some time closer to the actual start of trial??? If Corey is holding it back, she is running a very real risk of not having it admitted at trial, since she is supposed to turn any such evidence to defense in a “timely” manner. If it can be shown that she didn’t, I think (the lawyers here will correct me if I am wrong, I am sure) it will not be admissible. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9076 "2012-12-12T17:03:00Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Who cares? That’s an argument about the weight of evidence, not about its existence. You ignore the link I provided that suggests it is unlikely that such evidence exists because most phone companies don’t retain the actual text in SMS messages. When I studied SMS messages in Florida, I couldn’t find a single case where the message was obtained from phone company records. They got the records from the suspect’s phone. That doesn’t apply to Zimmerman because he wasn’t arrested. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9077 "2012-12-12T17:15:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Not that I can think of – which may be a failure of my imagination, mind you. What other evidence could there be? What other evidence is on the lists that could convict Zimmerman. We also have to wonder why Corey didn’t mention it her affidavit? She got a lot of flak for submitting such a lame affidavit. What would be Corey’s position be if she had strong evidence, but didn’t notify the court or the defense of it’s existence? Could she be disbarred? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9078 "2012-12-12T17:19:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > If Corey is holding it back, she is running a very real risk of not having it admitted at trial, since she is supposed to turn any such evidence to defense in a “timely” manner. If it can be shown that she didn’t, I think (the lawyers here will correct me if I am wrong, I am sure) it will not be admissible. I can understand why she might hold back exculpatory evidence, why would she withhold evidence that would help her case? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9079 "2012-12-12T17:41:08Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > if the evidence is from the echoes in her own mind than it’s going to be difficult to get a conviction. I take issue with the continued assumption by many people in this and other threads that since they personally believe the evidence doesn’t justify a conviction that GZ will not be convicted. This seems to fly in the face of logic. What you’ve seen in these threads is that - however right you may think you are - there are any number of other people who passionately disagree. There are some posters to this thread who, were they on the jury, would vote to convict on the most severe charges possible. So it all boils down to who is on the jury. Which is something of a crapshoot. But the prosecution has the upper hand here. Because they would have a much easier time stacking the jury with African Americans than the defense would have in excluding them. And African Americans are the group most predisposed to convict GZ. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9080 "2012-12-12T17:54:06Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > What you’ve seen in these threads is that - however right you may think you are - there are any number of other people who passionately disagree. There are some posters to this thread who, were they on the jury, would vote to convict on the most severe charges possible. So it all boils down to who is on the jury. Yes and no. As \*\*Bricker \*\*pointed out repeatedly, if the judge during the trial sees that there is just no evidence that warrants the charge levied, it will not go to the jury. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9081 "2012-12-12T17:54:54Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I can understand why she might hold back exculpatory evidence, why would she withhold evidence that would help her case? Holding back or witholding exculpatory evidence would help her case. This ain’t Corey’s first rodeo. Even the lynch-mob media seemed to back off once she was appointed (and “suggested” that they back off and let the law run it’s course) and she’s even threatened to sue the Harvard Law School. She has a history of being able to get convictions, is very intimidating, and has a lot of influencial friends. I’m sure she knows how far she can push an issue before she gets her hand officially slapped by the court. She may be hoping for a plea to a lessor charge or assuming that she can find a jury that will find for 2nd degree??? Maybe she’s hoping GZ will break down and confess??? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9082 "2012-12-12T17:57:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes and no. As \*\*Bricker \*\*pointed out repeatedly, if the judge during the trial sees that there is just no evidence that warrants the charge levied, it will not go to the jury. WADR I disagree with Bricker. We are already past that point. It’s being speculated that the judge will rule against GZ at the SYG hearing simply because she won’t want to take the political heat of stopping the trial at that point. Ruling to dismiss the case without even letting it go to the jury would be an even bolder move. Very unlikely to happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=453) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=455)