# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 459
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9163 "2012-12-19T19:17:00Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Why do they need to issue a correction? THEY HAVE THE ORIGINAL DOCUMENT. The Singleton timeline is not the end-all, be-all of any and all time lines in the ‘original report’. Singleton got it wrong; a simple but obvious mistake. > > Go back and read my post above. What is your explanation for the timestamps of the initial subject descriptions, of the subject running, and the timing of when they occur during the actual NEN recording. We have that recording as well, by the way. In addition to the original NEN dispatch record. > > You’re just hand-waving all that away, putting your fingers in your ears and repeating ‘But Singleton wrote something different! Singleton wrote something different! I can’t hear you la la la la la!’? It is interesting that you don’t think that the prosecution doesn’t have time to correct evidence that is in discovery and corroborates Zimmerman’s testimony. If you actually find evidence and instead of repeating your assertions, then I will listen. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9164 "2012-12-19T19:21:44Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is interesting that you don’t think that the prosecution doesn’t have time to correct evidence that is in discovery and corroborates Zimmerman’s testimony. If you actually find evidence and instead of repeating your assertions, then I will listen. They don’t need to ‘correct’ any evidence, they have the evidence. We have the evidence - the original dispatch record. Now, I’ll ask again - What is your explanation for the timestamps of the initial subject descriptions, of the subject running, and the timing of when they occur during the actual NEN recording? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9165 "2012-12-20T00:10:19Z")
Why the argument over the timeline via the exact call seconds? There’s still zero evidence that Zimmerman caught Martin, physically confronted him and put Martin in a position of no retreat thus forcing Martin to enact self defense and get violent. It’s clear someone was violent towards someone else, and only one person can rightfully claim Stand Your Ground. Usually in most cases when you want someone to leave you alone and you feel they aren’t giving you a chance to walk away, you sucker punch, throw dirt in the yes, trick them etc… just enough to distract them, and then you run. Between Zimmerman’s account, the phone call with DeeDee and Trayvon and the lack of evidence saying otherwise… how on Earth can we even began to contemplate putting someone in jail? There are some people who think that this case is hurting the integrity of the SYG law. And while that’s debatable, the common thread with them is that they claim Zimmerman is at fault for making a public spectacle of it through his actions. Yet they then go onto ‘support’ this stance, by vehemently declaring he was in the wrong, and openly admitted to stalking Martin and causing a confrontation. I don’t know what video they watched - Zimmerman said nothing of the sort. This is more of ‘I chose my verdict immediately and hastily based on inane aspects that aren’t judicially oriented, and now I’m saving face by making up some lame reason as to why I think he did it.’ Meanwhile the only farse is the embarrassing actions of Corey, Crump, the DA’s office, the State and so forth. There’s only one timeline that matters: Z- Driving through neighborhood, sees suspicious person Z- Calls NEN to report it(not an emergency yet) M- Sees dude in vehicle looking at him, using phone and driving slowly M- Leaves the vicinity out sight of dude Z- Leaves vehicle to find suspicious person, told to stop, stops, decides to identify a location for a meet with officers M- On phone with girlfriend, told by girlfriend to leave it be, apparently(or allegedly does otherwise) unknown at the time to Zimmerman Z- Returns towards vehicle to meet officer at clubhouse since no address can be agreed on Z- Confronted, attacked, and then fires on suspicious person ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9166 "2012-12-20T01:08:24Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > They don’t need to ‘correct’ any evidence, they have the evidence. We have the evidence - the original dispatch record. > > Now, I’ll ask again - What is your explanation for the timestamps of the initial subject descriptions, of the subject running, and the timing of when they occur during the actual NEN recording? Singleton’s timeline begins at 19:11:12 which is the same as created time in the event report. You guys insist that the recording started at 19:09:34 which is the connection time in the event log. I’m saying Zimmerman was calling in on the NEN line so he spent 1:38 on hold before the recording started. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9167 "2012-12-20T01:50:26Z")
[quote=“Saraya, post:9165, topic:619125”] Why the argument over the timeline via the exact call seconds? I know it seems like we are arguing over trivia, but one attorney says most murder trials turn on what happens in the last 60 seconds. The Singleton timeline says there is 80 seconds between Zimmerman hanging up and the first 911 call and 117 seconds before Zimmerman shot Martin. This makes it very likely that Martin confronted Zimmerman. The timeline Dragonash insists on is another 98 seconds which brings up the question of why Zimmerman wasn’t back at his truck instead of at the top of the T. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9168 "2012-12-20T02:26:17Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I know it seems like we are arguing over trivia, but one attorney says most murder trials turn on what happens in the last 60 seconds. The Singleton timeline says there is 80 seconds between Zimmerman hanging up and the first 911 call and 117 seconds before Zimmerman shot Martin. This makes it very likely that Martin confronted Zimmerman. Actually 80 seconds makes it _less_ likely that Martin confronted Zimmerman. The shorter you make the gap, the more you encroach on the window of time Martin was on the phone and the less believable your theory becomes. Who picks a fight with someone while on the phone? It’s pretty clear you’re not thinking through your arguments very clearly, so I’m going to kindly spell it out to you. If we had to compare who had the shortest gaps in time between their respective phone calls and the estimated start time for the fight, _Martin had the shorter gap_. This is the case whether we give Zimmerman 80 seconds or 150 seconds. Because Martin had _zero_ gap, based on the ear witnesses’s statement along with his phone records. So by arguing that a short gap = increased likelihood of being ambushed by an aggressor, you’re basically calling the Zimmerman guilty one. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9169 "2012-12-20T02:32:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Actually 80 seconds makes it _less_ likely that Martin confronted Zimmerman. The shorter you make the gap, the more you encroach on the window of time Martin was on the phone and the less believable your theory becomes. Who picks a fight with someone while on the phone? Martin was still on the phone to Dee Dee when he starts a conversation with Zimmerman. Zimmerman has already set up a rendezvous with the police and his location is consistent with movement toward the location he directed them too and not a location that suggests he went wandering around looking for Martin. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9170 "2012-12-20T02:34:57Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The timeline Dragonash insists on is another 98 seconds which brings up the question of why Zimmerman wasn’t back at his truck instead of at the top of the T. And 80 seconds is still long enough time for Zimmerman to have made it past the T from he supposedly had stood near RVC. That’s the distance of importance, NOT the distance from there to his truck. All one needs to do is watch the video reenactment to see how long it should have traveled. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9171 "2012-12-20T02:42:05Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin was still on the phone to Dee Dee when he starts a conversation with Zimmerman. Very true. He was on the phone with his gf when something interrupted his conversation. What could that something have been? If **Joel** thinks Zimmerman’s supposedly short gap of 80 seconds is a meaningful indicator that he was attacked by Martin, why does he not think it’s meaningful that Martin’s conversation with his GF overlapped his encounter with Zimmerman? The gap has to mean the same thing for both parties, doesn’t it? Or are we supposed to hold Martin to a different standard, just so we can continue to see Zimmerman as innocent? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9172 "2012-12-20T09:55:41Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Singleton’s timeline begins at 19:11:12 which is the same as created time in the event report. You guys insist that the recording started at 19:09:34 which is the connection time in the event log. I’m saying Zimmerman was calling in on the NEN line so he spent 1:38 on hold before the recording started. :smack: So, your theory is that Zimmerman connected at 19:09:34, was on hold for 1:38, and then started talking to the dispatcher at 19:11:12. He spent approximately 4 minutes and 10 seconds on the phone. Approximately two minutes and 15 seconds into the phone call (19:13:27, if we go by the time you say the call started at), George says that Martin is running towards the back entrance. And yet, the dispatch log has that information entered at 19:11:59. Approximately 4 minutes into the phone call (19:15:12, going on your start time for the call), George tells the dispatch, ‘Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?’. And yet, the dispatch log has that information entered at 19:13:41. How odd, how curious. If we add 2 minutes and 15 seconds to the connection time, we get 19:11:51, which is remarkably close to the dispatch log time of 19:11:59 - just long enough to type in the info and hit enter. If we had 4 minutes from the connection time, we get 19:13:34. Again, remarkably close to the dispatch log time of 19:13:41. Again, long enough to type in the info and hit enter. Hey, I get why you’re so desperate to eliminate the gap between the end of the NEN call and the start of the fight, but you are so clearly, undeniably, unequivacably wrong, I can only assume you’re doing this as one big level. Or are you going to argue that the only thing on the dispatch log that is correct is the ‘create’ time, and all the other time stamps for other information entered were illegally altered after the fact? George spent close to two minutes after the NEN call doing something in the area that did not involve going back to his truck. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9173 "2012-12-20T13:03:05Z")
The time stamps are entered at the start. The operator didn’t type the rest until later. Singleton said the Martin was running at 13:19. Apparently you have a simplistic view of how the system works and Singleton understands it and makes the proper adjustment which is why she put 13:19 in her timeline instead 11:59. If she made the simple error you accuse her of, where would she get 13:19? Why didn’t she just copy the 11:59? BTW, the more insults you issue, the more convinced I am that you know you are wrong. Did Jeralyn ban you from TalkLeft? She has a low tolerance for insulting language and I notice you haven’t posted anything since July. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9174 "2012-12-20T13:08:38Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Who picks a fight with someone while on the phone? Somebody who wants his girlfriend to her him kick somebody’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9175 "2012-12-20T13:42:34Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > The time stamps are entered at the start. The operator didn’t type the rest until later. Singleton said the Martin was running at 13:19. > > Apparently you have a simplistic view of how the system works and Singleton understands it and makes the proper adjustment which is why she put 13:19 in her timeline instead 11:59. If she made the simple error you accuse her of, where would she get 13:19? Why didn’t she just copy the 11:59? > > BTW, the more insults you issue, the more convinced I am that you know you are wrong. Did Jeralyn ban you from TalkLeft? She has a low tolerance for insulting language and I notice you haven’t posted anything since July. Banned? No, I don’t post because it’s meaningless. I don’t post in this thread much any more either except to point out the most ridiculous of errors - like yours. ‘Simplistic view’ of the dispatch system? I have a -realistic- view of how the system records calls, unlike your view, which requires the dispatcher to…do what? Hit enter at random intervals, the go _back_ and enter in various bits of information from memory after the fact, and that those bits of information entered after the fact would be entered in for a time slot that didn’t reflect when the event actually happened? (But would - in an incredible coincidence of events - perfectly match up if we merely assumed the call started when the call…connected?) > [@](#): > > ‘Singleton says Martin was running at’ (at 19:13:19)'. And the dispatch log says Martin was running 19:11:59. So your ‘theory’ is that at 19:11:59, after having been on the phone with George for about 45 seconds, the operator hit the enter button for some unknown or completely random reason, then either later in the call (or heck, maybe after the call was finished) went back in to the record, went to that line, and entered in the ‘suspect now heading back towards back entrance’ to record an event that was actually happening at 19:13:19? And that he did this for all the remarks? I mean…are you serious? That’s really what you think happens? Because the calisthenics you’re doing to your story to avoid admitting you were flat-out wrong are getting more and more ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9176 "2012-12-20T13:55:56Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Because some people assume that “Connection Time” is the same as the start of the recording and that NEN calls never end up on hold and the “Created” time is not the start of the recording. Is that anything like assuming that notes can be entered in zero seconds so that the time stamp on the notes is exactly the same as the time stamp when the call started? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9177 "2012-12-20T13:57:12Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Singleton’s timeline begins at 19:11:12 which is the same as created time in the event report. You guys insist that the recording started at 19:09:34 which is the connection time in the event log. I’m saying Zimmerman was calling in on the NEN line so he spent 1:38 on hold before the recording started. And Sean Noffke entered the remarks instantaneously. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9178 "2012-12-20T13:57:23Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Is that anything like assuming that notes can be entered in zero seconds so that the time stamp on the notes is exactly the same as the time stamp when the call started? No, he’s now saying that the dispatcher went back in and filled in the notes after the fact. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9179 "2012-12-20T14:11:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So by arguing that a short gap = increased likelihood of being ambushed by an aggressor, you’re basically calling the Zimmerman guilty one. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion. Martin’s phone records say his last call started at 19:12 and lasted 4 minutes. Phone companies always round up, which means the call lasted for 3:01 to 4:00 The 911 call came in at 19:16:43. This implies that Martin knew Zimmerman was talking to the police and confronted him as soon as he hung up. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9180 "2012-12-20T14:24:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And 80 seconds is still long enough time for Zimmerman to have made it past the T from he supposedly had stood near RVC. That’s the distance of importance, NOT the distance from there to his truck. > > All one needs to do is watch the video reenactment to see how long it should have traveled. You don’t understand. 80 seconds includes Martin confronting Zimmerman. Fight Starting. Witness overhearing fight. Witness deciding to call 911. Witness actually calling 911. 80 seconds doesn’t include time for Zimmerman to go much of anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9181 "2012-12-20T14:28:55Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Very true. He was on the phone with his gf when something interrupted his conversation. What could that something have been? According to Dee Dee, Martin broke off the conversation to confront Zimmerman and (apparently) punch him in the face. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9182 "2012-12-20T15:25:39Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > And Sean Noffke entered the remarks instantaneously. Actually, if you study the record, There is actually 4 different people, with different EMPID and TERMID. It looks like Noffke is 107052 and TM21. 104137 and TM06 is the dispather. S25894 and 4027 is the officer T. Smith dispatched to the scene. I don’t who 108047 who made the entry on March 8th is. Some of the standard entries could be done with a single keystroke, so there may be multiple entries in one second. Here is a interview with Sean Noffke. [http://psc.apcointl.org/2012/06/14/telecommunicator-spotlight-sean-noffke-ready-for-anything/](http://psc.apcointl.org/2012/06/14/telecommunicator-spotlight-sean-noffke-ready-for-anything/) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=458) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=460)