# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 479
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9563 "2013-04-04T18:45:25Z")
I’ve said a number of times I fully expect Zimmerman to walk. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9564 "2013-04-04T19:01:11Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > A: I made no claims about the gunshot wound. No, you asked the rest of us to prove that Martin didn’t “just say something like ‘that’s what you get for following me…’ and then get up and run away” after beating up Zimmerman. The fact that the gunshot wound is a contact or near-contact wound tends to the conclusion that Martin did not get up and run away after beating up Zimmerman. If Martin had done so, the wound would be from further away than eight inches. > [@](#): > > I answered speculation (which was being presented as absolute fact) with further speculation. That Zimmerman lost sight of Martin is not speculation - it is backed up by Zimmerman’s account, \*\*which is confirmed by the independent testimony of the 911 operator and of Dee Dee. \*\* > [@](#): > > There are practically unlimited circumstances that might have caused the wound as it is from Zimmerman executing Martin in cold blood, to Martin wrestling the gun away from Zimmerman and shooting himself in the chest. So ditch the gunshot wound forensic analysis, huh? No, I don’t think it is appropriate to ignore the evidence. There are many scenarios possible. The ones worth considering are the ones backed up by evidence. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s fans are clinging to every word as though they were dropped from on high by Yahweh himself. Not true. The only parts that I see Zimmerman supporters (if you want to call them that) accepting are those backed up by the evidence. It is the Zimmerman detractors who are ignoring the evidence, attempting desperately to deny that it exists, or simply speculating based on no evidence at all. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9565 "2013-04-05T15:50:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I guess this also explains why I get so upset with people who think Zimmerman isn’t guilty at all; their lack of morality scares the monkey part of my brain that realizes I have to share a planet with them. What’s really disturbing is that you have already concluded he is guilty of ‘something,’ just …well becauase he has to be. And furthermore that you are upset with the idea that people do not want to wrongly pass judgement on someone. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9566 "2013-04-05T16:00:59Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > D: Speculation is not evidence? Golly, thanks for the law lesson. Maybe you should clue \*\*Saraya \*\*in as well before she makes Martin a tyrannical despot bent on taking over Florida. > And just in case you go there … no, I don’t think Martin shot himself in the chest. I have no clue about who Zimmerman is as a person, and I haven’t an interest. I do not see him as some saint for sticking to his guns(no pun…well maybe just a little, admit it you laughed). I do not view him as a poster boy for SYG or self defense laws. I do however see him as a man in a position where the law is continously expected to bend to meet circumstance, of which is rooted in more emotional and presumptuous information than actual facts. Given the racial, political and social apathy that we as a society endure, it will be cases like this that test our commitment to the laws that we wrote and enacted for what are hopefully objective reasons and sound logic. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9567 "2013-04-05T16:20:18Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > What’s really disturbing is that you have already concluded he is guilty of ‘something,’ just …well becauase he has to be. And furthermore that you are upset with the idea that people do not want to wrongly pass judgement on someone. In context, **Evil Economist** is replying to my post, so it’s clear he’s saying Zimmerman is morally culpable, not legally culpable. And it’s equally clear that I laid out the reasons Zimmerman is, in my opinion, morally guilty – reasons which **EE** seems to endorse. So it’s completely baseless for you to now characterize that as “…just …well becauase he has to be.” Reasons were clearly stated. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9568 "2013-04-05T17:13:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In context, **Evil Economist** is replying to my post, so it’s clear he’s saying Zimmerman is morally culpable, not legally culpable. > > And it’s equally clear that I laid out the reasons Zimmerman is, in my opinion, morally guilty – reasons which **EE** seems to endorse. > > So it’s completely baseless for you to now characterize that as “…just …well becauase he has to be.” Reasons were clearly stated. His response was an ad hominem attack aimed at those who argued Zimmerman had a right to question Martin’s behavior and call the police. As part of a neighborhood watch group he was doing exactly what he should have been doing. Evil Economist’s moral charge against the other posters is based on the idea that Zimmerman was" the adult with the gun who scared a teenager into attacking him". There is no indication that Zimmerman intended to frighten Martin. And based on Martin’s behavior there is no indication he was frightened of Zimmerman. His behavior indicates he was the opposite of frightened. He chose to confront Zimmerman and then beat him which is the moral failing in this event and also the reason he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9569 "2013-04-05T18:53:45Z")
Zimmerman’s own words and behavior (“fucking punks”, “these assholes always get away”, getting out of his car with his gun to follow Martin when he started running away from him) gives us plenty of interpretation over what he was planning on doing with/to the teen walking down the sidewalk doing nothing wrong. I’ve already mentioned Martin running away from Zimmerman – almost as though he were frightened of him. Zimmerman is the one who chose to initiate a confrontation when he got out of his car with his gun to chase down Martin, the lie that he was “looking for a street sign” notwithstanding. Martin never doubled back to intentionally confront Zimmerman, as he most likely never left the area near where he was shot (the entire area behind the houses being “by [his] father’s house”). In this case, the confrontation would have occurred when the two parties happened upon each other in the dark. A confrontation that never would have happened if Zimmerman had minded his own fucking business. This is, of course, speculation that I freely admit to – unlike \*\*Magiver \*\*who knows precisely what lurks in the hearts of men. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9570 "2013-04-05T18:57:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His response was an ad hominem attack aimed at those who argued Zimmerman had a right to question Martin’s behavior and call the police. As part of a neighborhood watch group he was doing exactly what he should have been doing. > > Evil Economist’s moral charge against the other posters is based on the idea that Zimmerman was" the adult with the gun who scared a teenager into attacking him". There is no indication that Zimmerman intended to frighten Martin. And based on Martin’s behavior there is no indication he was frightened of Zimmerman. His behavior indicates he was the opposite of frightened. He chose to confront Zimmerman and then beat him which is the moral failing in this event and also the reason he was shot. Yeah, I guess it’s conceivably possible that Zimmerman was such a fucking moron that he didn’t realize that creeping after a teenager in the dark while carrying a loaded gun might frighten the kid. Kind of a “no mens rea, because too fucking stupid” defense. Luckily we don’t execute the clinically retarded in this country, so I guess he should walk (we don’t execute the clinically retarded, do we?). In fairness, I suppose I should say that not all of the “Zimmerman isn’t guilty in any sense” crowd lack morals. Some of them may just not realize that creeping after a kid in the dark while carrying a loaded gun might be frightening (many of them don’t understand this for the same reason that Zimmerman couldn’t understand it either). Side note; I was playing around with a friend’s cat; I did this thing where I hid behind a sofa and then kinda lunged out at it. Friendly cat, but it instinctively swiped at me when I did that. I suppose I should have shot it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9571 "2013-04-05T19:49:21Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > A confrontation that never would have happened if Zimmerman had minded his own fucking business. Correct. Whether Zimmerman threatened Martin or Martin threatened Zimmerman is something we may never definitively know. But we know one thing right now, with reasonable certainty: this confrontation never would have happened if Zimmerman had minded his own fucking business. Indeed, forget “minding his own business” – this never would have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, relying reports to the police. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9572 "2013-04-05T19:50:43Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > In fairness, I suppose I should say that not all of the “Zimmerman isn’t guilty in any sense” crowd lack morals. Some of them may just not realize that creeping after a kid in the dark while carrying a loaded gun might be frightening (many of them don’t understand this for the same reason that Zimmerman couldn’t understand it either). No, it’s that we have noticed that there’s no evidence that that’s what happened. I’m not prepared to say someone is culpable of something that there is no evidence for. Zimmerman is not responsible for Martin’s irrational actions. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9573 "2013-04-05T19:53:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Correct. > > Whether Zimmerman threatened Martin or Martin threatened Zimmerman is something we may never definitively know. > > But we know one thing right now, with reasonable certainty: this confrontation never would have happened if Zimmerman had minded his own fucking business. Indeed, forget “minding his own business” – this never would have happened if Zimmerman had stayed in his car, relying reports to the police. It was Zimmerman’s fucking business. If someone acts suspiciously near my home, it’s my business. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9574 "2013-04-05T19:59:39Z")
Remind me to never walk down a sidewalk next to \*\*Steophan’s \*\*home, lest he thinks shuffling in a suspicious manner. Wouldn’t want a hollow-point to the ventricle. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9575 "2013-04-05T20:11:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, it’s that we have noticed that there’s no evidence that that’s what happened. I’m not prepared to say someone is culpable of something that there is no evidence for. Zimmerman is not responsible for Martin’s irrational actions. Based on Zimmerman’s own statements, he’s responsible for the death. Did he follow the kid down the street? Yes In the dark? Yes With a loaded gun? Yes Did he get out of the car? Yes Did he shoot the kid to death? Yes Would Martin still be alive if he had avoided doing any one of the above? Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes, he’s responsible for the death. He may not get convicted, 'cause the law is an ass, but he’s guilty as hell. The only good news out of this is that I know how to murder someone and get away with it. Step 1: Convince them to visit Florida. Step 2: Convince them to be black. Step 3: Shoot them. Step 4: Tell the police they swung at me first. Oh, Step 5: Collect the filthy lucre from shitbags who want to give their money to someone who just shot a kid to death. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9576 "2013-04-05T20:27:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It was Zimmerman’s fucking business. If someone acts suspiciously near my home, it’s my business. If some damn kid does start acting suspiciously near your house, this is what you want to do: Wait until it’s dark, and raining. Good, now get your gun, your sweet sweet gun (make sure it’s loaded!). Now, get in your car and creep down the street after the kid until he gets so frightened he runs away (_am I the suspicious one now? forget that thought, that’s cognitive dissonance fucking with me_). Call the police, but ignore what they tell you; they’re not the ones out here on the mean streets of this gated community. Now let’s go after the kid. Don’t forget your gun; you’re going to be using it later, if you know what I mean. Yeah, this is going to end well. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9577 "2013-04-05T20:45:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Based on Zimmerman’s own statements, he’s responsible for the death. > > Did he follow the kid down the street? Yes > In the dark? Yes > With a loaded gun? Yes > Did he get out of the car? Yes > Did he shoot the kid to death? Yes > Would Martin still be alive if he had avoided doing any one of the above? Yes > > Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes, he’s responsible for the death. He may not get convicted, 'cause the law is an ass, but he’s guilty as hell. The only good news out of this is that I know how to murder someone and get away with it. Step 1: Convince them to visit Florida. Step 2: Convince them to be black. Step 3: Shoot them. Step 4: Tell the police they swung at me first. > > Oh, Step 5: Collect the filthy lucre from shitbags who want to give their money to someone who just shot a kid to death. Step 4 will be much easier if you’ve been beaten, but the other party hasn’t, save for scrapes on the knuckles from beating you. Better add step 2A: get the other person to beat you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9578 "2013-04-05T20:58:32Z")
Interesting that **Human Action** has stumbled upon a point that I don’t think he was trying to make: \*\*\*get \*\*\*the other person to beat you. Because if the other person wasn’t going to beat you, then shooting him would just be mean … but if you can just somehow provoke the other person into a fight … BLAMMO! No worries. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9579 "2013-04-05T21:06:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Step 4 will be much easier if you’ve been beaten, but the other party hasn’t, save for scrapes on the knuckles from beating you. Better add step 2A: get the other person to beat you. Not necessary. I do Judo and BJJ, and occasionally forget how bad a boxer I am and step into the boxing ring, so I routinely get the sort of bruises that are sufficient to convince the Florida police that I was in fear for my life. I actually, no joke, have a black (more of a dirty yellow at this point) eye as I’m writing this. The guy who accidentally hit me with his elbow is lucky we weren’t in Florida, or I’d have capped his ass. Not only do I think a few minor bruises are no big deal, I actually pay money so that other people have the opportunity to give them to me. I’ll have to be careful, though; Zimmerman might show up at a class. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9580 "2013-04-05T21:52:13Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Remind me to never walk down a sidewalk next to \*\*Steophan’s \*\*home, lest he thinks shuffling in a suspicious manner. Wouldn’t want a hollow-point to the ventricle. If you walked near my house, and I considered that you were acting suspiciously, I would quite possibly call the police. If I chose, there would be no reason, except personal risk, not to follow you and ask what you were doing. If you decided to attack me for doing that, I would feel free to defend myself in any way necessary. That would not involve using a gun, as you’d know if you actually read my posts. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Based on Zimmerman’s own statements, he’s responsible for the death. > > Did he follow the kid down the street? Yes > In the dark? Yes > With a loaded gun? Yes > Did he get out of the car? Yes > Did he shoot the kid to death? Yes > Would Martin still be alive if he had avoided doing any one of the above? Yes There’s nothing wrong with the first four things you mention. Nothing at all. you conveniently miss out a few things after that, mainly involving Martin attacking Zimmerman. There’s nothing wrong with defending yourself, and using lethal force to do so if required. Would Martin still be alive if he hadn’t attacked Zimmerman? Unquestionably. The big difference is, Zimmerman could not reasonably predict being attacked as a response to his actions. Martin could predict that Zimmerman would defend himself. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Interesting that **Human Action** has stumbled upon a point that I don’t think he was trying to make: \*\*\*get \*\*\*the other person to beat you. Because if the other person wasn’t going to beat you, then shooting him would just be mean … but if you can just somehow provoke the other person into a fight … BLAMMO! No worries. There is nothing that can legitimately provoke someone into attacking you like that. You can’t attack someone and then not accept the consequences. I’ll explain this again. Calling the police is fine. Following someone is fine. Asking them what they are doing is fine. (Not that I actually think Zimmerman did these last two things). Attacking someone in response to doing that is not fine. Shooting someone who’s attacking you is fine, if you’re in fear of death or serious injury. The only bit that’s not acceptable behaviour is Martin’s bit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9581 "2013-04-05T21:55:55Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Now, get in your car and creep down the street after the kid until he gets so frightened he runs away (_am I the suspicious one now? forget that thought, that’s cognitive dissonance fucking with me_). Call the police, but ignore what they tell you; they’re not the ones out here on the mean streets of this gated community. Now let’s go after the kid. Oh, I missed this bit. None of those things actually happened, based on _any_ of the available evidence. Most importantly, Zimmerman did stop following Martin when asked to by the police. Martin could, and perhaps should, have called the police himself. What he should not have done is punched Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose, and then straddled him and bashed his head against the ground. That is neither legally nor morally an acceptable response to someone’s actions, even if they do scare you. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9582 "2013-04-05T22:07:44Z")
Yes. I’m sure your testicle are huge. If I saw someone walking down the sidewalk in my neighborhood, first of all he’d have to be doing something a lot more than walking slowly and looking around before I considered him suspicious. Secondly, if I did think he was up to no good, there’s no way in hell I’d confront, even if I was just going politely ask him what he was doing in \*my \*neighborhood. But you - and Zimmie - would because you’ve got your gun to bail you out - and if the guy dies, he dies. He shouldn’t been in your neighborhood. Congratulations on the next step toward sociopath. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=478) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=480)