# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 480
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9583 "2013-04-05T22:14:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with the first four things you mention. Nothing at all. Nothing other than that they resulted in a death, you mean. Which is pretty much nothing at all. Just a corpse. An adult man with a loaded gun engaged in a series of stupid actions that resulted in the corpse of a teenage kid. So, basically nothing wrong with this at all. I mean, none of his actions were technically individually illegal, so who the fuck cares about the occasional corpse. And if his actions were technically legal, then they must be moral, right. Like for instance when it was legal to whip your slaves, then there was nothing immoral about whipping your slaves, because what’s legal is moral. An adult man with a loaded gun created a situation that anyone with an IQ over 80 knew had a chance of resulting in a fatal outcome, and that’s just fucking fine. I mean, if you can’t stalk and kill the occasional black kid, what has this country come to? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9584 "2013-04-05T22:19:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > > [@Evil Economist](#): > > > > Now, get in your car and creep down the street after the kid until he gets so frightened he runs away (am I the suspicious one now? forget that thought, that’s cognitive dissonance fucking with me). Call the police, but ignore what they tell you; they’re not the ones out here on the mean streets of this gated community. Now let’s go after the kid. > > Oh, I missed this bit. None of those things actually happened, based on _any_ of the available evidence. Really? So when Zimmerman said “Shit, he’s running”, he was lying, according to you? Or maybe when Zimmerman said “Yeah [I’m following him],” he was lying then too? Or maybe you just have no idea what you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9585 "2013-04-05T22:41:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Nothing other than that they resulted in a death, you mean. Which is pretty much nothing at all. Just a corpse. As I pointed out, those actions did not result in a corpse. The corpse happened because Martin put Zimmerman in a position where he needed to defend himself. Zimmerman, as far as we can tell from the evidence, did nothing to Martin prior to being attacked. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Really? So when Zimmerman said “Shit, he’s running”, he was lying, according to you? Or maybe when Zimmerman said “Yeah [I’m following him],” he was lying then too? Or maybe you just have no idea what you’re talking about. You missed the part where he stopped following when asked to, then? Or the part where Martin was so terrified that, instead of going home, he came back to attack Zimmerman? Fantasy narrative of Zimmerman chasing Martin down with his gun like Dirty Harry may entertain you, but they have no basis in fact. You’ve no reason to think that the weapon was anything other than holstered and concealed, and therefore irrelevant, prior to Martin’s attack. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9586 "2013-04-05T22:44:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If I saw someone walking down the sidewalk in my neighborhood, first of all he’d have to be doing something a lot more than walking slowly and looking around before I considered him suspicious. Secondly, if I did think he was up to no good, there’s no way in hell I’d confront, even if I was just going politely ask him what he was doing in \*my \*neighborhood. But you - and Zimmie - would because you’ve got your gun to bail you out - and if the guy dies, he dies. He shouldn’t been in your neighborhood. If I knew that there’d been several recent burglaries, anyone walking slowly and looking around would be suspicious. Also, I didn’t say I would in fact follow or talk to them, just that I’d have the right to. If you bother to actually read my posts, you’ll know I don’t have a gun, and why. Of course, in your world where someone saying something proves the exact opposite is true, you now probably assume I’m a serial killer. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9587 "2013-04-05T22:51:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > As I pointed out, those actions did not result in a corpse. I’m pretty sure they did. Or maybe this is one of those zen riddles; “It weren’t me whut killed him, it were the bullet” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9588 "2013-04-05T22:55:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If I knew that there’d been several recent burglaries, anyone walking slowly and looking around would be suspicious. You mean like old people? With their slow walking and looking around, I know I’m up for shooting them. Or could there be some other characteristic of a person that might make them especially suspicious? One we’re not talking about for some reason? A certain \*urban \*flair as it were? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9589 "2013-04-05T23:08:25Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’m pretty sure they did. Or maybe this is one of those zen riddles; “It weren’t me whut killed him, it were the bullet” Nope, it’s the simple fact that Zimmerman calling the police, getting out of his car, following Martin for a bit then stopping, anything before Martin attacked him really, had nothing to do with Martin’s death. > [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You mean like old people? With their slow walking and looking around, I know I’m up for shooting them. > > Or could there be some other characteristic of a person that might make them especially suspicious? One we’re not talking about for some reason? A certain \*urban \*flair as it were? Oh, you mean the fact that he had certain physical characteristics in common with the burglars who were seen in the area? Yes, that added to the suspicion. If you know that young black men have been burgling houses in your neighbourhood, you look for young black men acting suspiciously, not old people. The same would be true for middle aged white women, or any other demographic you care to name. If Zimmerman had called the police on a black youth who _wasn’t_ acting suspiciously, you’d have a point, but that possibly went out the window when Martin punched him. If I were you, I wouldn’t try to claim Zimmerman is racist. That claim has been thoroughly debunked by now, and continuing along that path will simply prove you know nothing about this case. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9590 "2013-04-05T23:09:29Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If I knew that there’d been several recent burglaries, anyone walking slowly and looking around would be suspicious. Yeah, and it’s exactly this prejudicial and paranoid mindset that hurts Zimmerman’s claim to self-defense. Martin should not have lost his life because a wannabe hero profiled him as threat. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9591 "2013-04-05T23:19:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, it’s the simple fact that Zimmerman calling the police, getting out of his car, following Martin for a bit then stopping, anything before Martin attacked him really, had nothing to do with Martin’s death. What would it take for you to stop believing that Martin went after Zimmerman rather than the other way around? If cell tower analysis showed that Martin’s signal stayed stationary prior to the encounter while Zimmerman’s moved towards Martin’s coordinates, would you revise your opinion? Or would you take one look at that evidence and dismiss it like you’ve dismissed DD’s account and other thing that reflects poor on Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9592 "2013-04-05T23:22:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yeah, and it’s exactly this prejudicial and paranoid mindset that hurts Zimmerman’s claim to self-defense. Martin should not have lost his life because a wannabe hero profiled him as threat. That’s not why he lost his life. He lost his life because he attacked someone without provocation. It is a good thing to call the police if someone’s acting suspiciously, not a bad thing. That’s why many people, myself included, have said that, if Martin felt scared or threatened by Zimmerman, he should have called them. The point is _not_ to take matters into your own hands, _not_ to be a fucking hero, and _not_ to start violence. There’s no prejudice, and no paranoia. Quite the opposite. Martin _was_ in fact violent and dangerous. Zimmerman’s mistake was not being paranoid enough. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9593 "2013-04-05T23:28:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What would it take for you to stop believing that Martin went after Zimmerman rather than the other way around? Any piece of evidence that even suggests that would be a start. The evidence we have is either silent on the matter, or points to Martin following Zimmerman. Ideally, a witness or security camera footage. > [@](#): > > If cell tower analysis showed that Martin’s signal stayed stationary prior to the encounter while Zimmerman’s moved towards Martin’s coordinates, would you revise your opinion? Why would Martin have been stationary? The only reason for that would be him lying in wait for Zimmerman. If the evidence showed Martin moving _away_, like he would have been expected to be doing, heading home, and Zimmerman moving towards him, I’d be interested. > [@](#): > > Or would you take one look at that evidence and dismiss it like you’ve dismissed DD’s account and other thing that reflects poor on Zimmerman? Show me the evidence, and I’ll decide. I haven’t dismissed Deedee’s account, by the way, it’s one of the main things that make me think Martin doubled back rather than hid somewhere, and that makes me think Martin attacked first, and she heard Zimmerman faintly tell him to get off. Have you seen this phone tower evidence, or is it more speculation? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9594 "2013-04-05T23:40:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope, it’s the simple fact that Zimmerman calling the police, getting out of his car, following Martin for a bit then stopping, anything before Martin attacked him really, had nothing to do with Martin’s death. It’s a pity Martin forced Zimmerman out of his car. If Zimmerman had been able to stay in his car no one would have gotten shot. What’s that? Zimmerman got out of his car voluntarily? Weird. With a possibly dangerous black youth on the prowl, he should have directed his paranoia toward locking the car door and waiting for the police. Pity the police didn’t advise him to do just that. I mean golly, who could possibly have foreseen that the man with a history of violence and a loaded gun would have ended up shooting someone. > [@](#): > > Oh, you mean the fact that he had certain physical characteristics in common with the burglars who were seen in the area? Yes, that added to the suspicion. Let’s summarize all the elements of suspicion that you’ve listed: **Walking slowly** , like the vast majority of old people in Florida do. **Looking around** , like all non-blind people do, except for those who are texting and then hilariously walking into things. **Being _urban_**. Yes, one of these things certainly arouses more suspicion than the others. > [@](#): > > If you know that young black men have been burgling houses in your neighbourhood, you look for young black men acting suspiciously, not old people. The same would be true for middle aged white women, or any other demographic you care to name. Yes, people without cars are famous for burgling. They steal TVs, sofas, and refrigerators, and then furiously skip to freedom. Some people might wonder whether successful burgers might not just drive to their target, but I say those people don’t understand just how much furniture a skipping black teenager can burgle, especially with some Snapple to give them energy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9595 "2013-04-05T23:48:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > With a possibly dangerous black youth on the prowl, he should have directed his paranoia toward locking the car door and waiting for the police. Pity the police didn’t advise him to do just that. Damn, strange how victim blaming is appropriate here. He shouldn’t have got out of his car, and she shouldn’t have worn that minidress. Gotcha. > [@](#): > > I mean golly, who could possibly have foreseen that the man with a history of violence and a loaded gun would have ended up shooting someone. It’s a damn shame the guy who attacked him didn’t figure that it could go badly for him, then he’d still be alive. > [@](#): > > **Looking around** , like all non-blind people do, except for those who are texting and then hilariously walking into things. Nope, most people look where they’re going. Doing otherwise is unusual. Doing otherwise in an area that’s had several burglaries is suspicious. Zimmerman’s suspicions may have been wrong, but they weren’t unreasonable. > [@](#): > > Yes, one of these things certainly arouses more suspicion than the others. It’s the combination that’s suspicious. > [@](#): > > Yes, people without cars are famous for burgling. They steal TVs, sofas, and refrigerators, and then furiously skip to freedom. Some people might wonder whether successful burgers might not just drive to their target, but I say those people don’t understand just how much furniture a skipping black teenager can burgle, especially with some Snapple to give them energy. You’re right, it’s absolutely impossible that someone could walk round an area in the evening with a plan to come back later that night with a van and some other people. Anyone who thinks burglars act that way is obviously insane :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9596 "2013-04-05T23:51:09Z")
Seriously, this whole idea that Zimmerman was wrong to call the police is _fucking absurd_. That’s what anyone should do if they see something they think is suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9597 "2013-04-05T23:51:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why would Martin have been stationary? The only reason for that would be him lying in wait for Zimmerman. Right, because it couldn’t possibly be that Martin was hiding from the guy who’d suddenly bolted out of his truck to run after him. “Lying in wait” is surely the only reason this kid stayed put. Right. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9598 "2013-04-05T23:56:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Damn, strange how victim blaming is appropriate here. He shouldn’t have got out of his car, and she shouldn’t have worn that minidress. Gotcha. I \*think \*the victim here is the one who got shot to death. I’m also pretty sure Zimmerman wasn’t wearing a minidress. But keep comparing the man who shot an innocent kid to death to a rape victim; I’m sure that’ll be a winning argument for you. > [@](#): > > You’re right, it’s absolutely impossible that someone could walk round an area in the evening with a plan to come back later that night with a van and some other people. Anyone who thinks burglars act that way is obviously insane :smack: Yes, looking around an area is so obviously illegal that anyone doing it should be shot to death. Since you love pointing out that no individual act of Zimmerman’s was illegal, try doing the same to Martin. Which of his acts prior to the altercation was illegal? The walking? The looking? The being black? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9599 "2013-04-05T23:58:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Seriously, this whole idea that Zimmerman was wrong to call the police is _fucking absurd_. That’s what anyone should do if they see something they think is suspicious. Yeah, we’re all upset that Zimmerman called the police. I mean none of us has \*said \*that, or \*implied \*it in any way, but we’re so obviously \*thinking \*it. You can hear us thinking it, can’t you? Maybe caressing a loaded gun will quiet the voices. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9600 "2013-04-06T00:01:32Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Right, because it couldn’t possibly be that Martin was hiding from the guy who’d suddenly bolted out of his truck to run after him. “Lying in wait” is surely the only reason this kid stayed put. Right. So, do you have this evidence or not? But yes, I would consider hiding from someone then emerging to punch them in the face, followed by straddling them and bashing their head against the ground as “lying in wait”. Don’t forget, he was right by the place he was staying (if we believe DeeDee, and I wouldn’t like to ignore her evidence), so could have gone in there and been much safer than hiding wherever he was. Easier to direct the police, who I’m sure he was intending to call, to where this maniac chasing him was, from a house he knows the address of than whatever bush you think he was hiding under. Your theory not only doesn’t fit with any of the evidence we’ve seen, it doesn’t even make internal sense. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9601 "2013-04-06T00:03:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > Yeah, we’re all upset that Zimmerman called the police. I mean none of us has \*said \*that, or \*implied \*it in any way, but we’re so obviously \*thinking \*it. You can hear us thinking it, can’t you? Maybe a loaded gun will quiet the voices. Yes, you are. You called him paranoid, and said he was profiling, for doing so. What exactly do you mean by your last sentence? It looks like you’re suggesting I shoot myself, I hope I’m misunderstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9602 "2013-04-06T00:07:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I \*think \*the victim here is the one who got shot to death. I’m also pretty sure Zimmerman wasn’t wearing a minidress. But keep comparing the man who shot an innocent kid to death to a rape victim; I’m sure that’ll be a winning argument for you. You think wrongly. The victim is the guy who was attacked and had to defend himself, and the evidence suggests that that was Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > Yes, looking around an area is so obviously illegal that anyone doing it should be shot to death. Since you love pointing out that no individual act of Zimmerman’s was illegal, try doing the same to Martin. Which of his acts prior to the altercation was illegal? The walking? The looking? The being black? The trespassing was, I believe, illegal, but I don’t think that’s overly relevant. It’s the bit you keep missing out, the bit where Martin punched and beat Zimmerman, that’s illegal, that means that Martin was not an innocent victim, and means the Zimmerman was justified in killing him. Not that Martin deserved it, but again that’s not particularly relevant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=479) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=481)