# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 482
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9623 "2013-04-08T12:59:16Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Interesting that **Human Action** has stumbled upon a point that I don’t think he was trying to make: \*\*\*get \*\*\*the other person to beat you. Because if the other person wasn’t going to beat you, then shooting him would just be mean … but if you can just somehow provoke the other person into a fight … BLAMMO! No worries. Just pointing out that \*\* Evil Economist\*\*'s foolproof murder plan hinges on 1) the target being willing to beat the murderer when non-physically provoked, 2) taking a beating, 3) hoping to hell you can get your pistol out and use it mid-beating. Are you confident you could pull that off? > [@Evil Economist](#): > > Not necessary. I do Judo and BJJ, and occasionally forget how bad a boxer I am and step into the boxing ring, so I routinely get the sort of bruises that are sufficient to convince the Florida police that I was in fear for my life. I actually, no joke, have a black (more of a dirty yellow at this point) eye as I’m writing this. The guy who accidentally hit me with his elbow is lucky we weren’t in Florida, or I’d have capped his ass. > > Not only do I think a few minor bruises are no big deal, I actually pay money so that other people have the opportunity to give them to me. I’ll have to be careful, though; Zimmerman might show up at a class. Not seeing the relevance; are you suggesting your murder plan kick in after inviting your target to punch you as part of a boxing match? Or that you get pre-beaten elsewhere? Because the EMTs may be able to determine that your wounds were too old, and you still need your target to scrape up his hand by hitting you. > [@Evil Economist](#): > > Prior to the stand-your-ground laws passing, would Zimmerman’s actions been moral? The stand-your-ground law has nothing\* to do with this case. Stand-your-ground eliminates a duty to retreat; Zimmerman’s account claims that he was unable to retreat. This is just self-defense, of the type that’s legal in every state. And no, defending your life from an imminent threat is never immoral. - except for creating the immunity-hearing process ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9624 "2013-04-08T13:15:36Z")
Homeowner’s Association settles with Martin family: [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083\_162-57578232-504083/trayvon-martins-parents-settle-wrongful-death-claim-with-homeowners-association-report-says/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57578232-504083/trayvon-martins-parents-settle-wrongful-death-claim-with-homeowners-association-report-says/) Apparently the Homeowners’ Assocation were able to settle for an amount of money less than the litigation would have cost them. I wonder if the Martins will buy a bunch of Cadillacs. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9625 "2013-04-08T13:20:50Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Eep,… > …let’s try again. > Is “zealous” simply a personality trait, or is he “zealous” in that he is actually interested in fulfilling his duty? “Zealous” is not a perjorative description. Defense attorneys are obligated, for example, to provide zealous representation (within the bounds of legal guidelines) to their clients. In this case, the phrase “He thus fulfills the duty of a zealous neighborhood watch participant…” means precisely that: by staying in the truck, he fulfills the duty of a neighborhood watch volunteer in the most complete way possible. Neighborhood watch programs specifically warn against more direct confrontations. > [@](#): > > Use of the adjective in this scenario gives a clear representation of your belief regarding his culpability. How so? > [@](#): > > 1. Although he follows watch guidelines, does his furthering actions coincide as well, or are we saying he exercised creative interpretation? > 2. Do the guidelines discuss or deal with morality specifically? His further actions could, I suppose, be – extremely charitably – called creative interpretation. More fairly and neutrally, they would be characterized as disregarding watch guidelines. > [@](#): > > For the record, I am not pro-Zimmerman; I am pro-justice… It’s not clear to me how the ends of justice are served by an impassioned defense of Zimmerman’s moral culpability. I, of course, have made clear that there is very little reasoned support for the criminal charge which Zimmerman faces. And i think that accounts for the change of tone which surprises you: we’re talking about different things. As a legal analyst, I was clearly and calmly explaining the various legal principles associated with the criminal case, legal principles which add up to a finding of not guilty. Now I’m discussing – clearly and calmly – the moral implications of an armed man choosing to inject himself into a scene that had the potential to turn into physical violence. That’s a generally perfectly legal choice to make. It’s not the right choice to make under these circumstances. In my opinion, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9626 "2013-04-08T14:14:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Just pointing out that \*\* Evil Economist\*\*'s foolproof murder plan hinges on 1) the target being willing to beat the murderer when non-physically provoked … Thank you for once again highlighting the significance of Zimmerman’s provocation in this case; a provocation he probably would have fled from had he not been toting his gun around. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9627 "2013-04-08T14:38:24Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Thank you for once again highlighting the significance of Zimmerman’s provocation in this case; a provocation he probably would have fled from had he not been toting his gun around. Zimmerman would have fled from his own provocation? Huh? I was just assuming provocation for the sake of discussion of **Evil Economist** ’s get-away-with-murder plan. In the specific case of George Zimmerman, what provocation do you assert that there was that legally or morally justified Martin attacking him? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9628 "2013-04-08T15:00:04Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > In the specific case of George Zimmerman, what provocation do you assert that there was that legally or morally justified Martin attacking him? He hit Martin in the fist with his nose. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9629 "2013-04-08T15:08:44Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Zimmerman would have fled from his own provocation? Huh? No. He wouldn’t have gotten out of his car in the first place if he hadn’t had his bail-out plan handy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9630 "2013-04-08T15:32:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No. He wouldn’t have gotten out of his car in the first place if he hadn’t had his bail-out plan handy. Maybe so. Maybe not. What bearing does this have on the matter, in your mind? Do you claim that Zimmerman provoked Martin into attacking him, and if so, in what manner? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9631 "2013-04-08T15:57:02Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No. He wouldn’t have gotten out of his car in the first place if he hadn’t had his bail-out plan handy. If Zimmerman’s bail-out plan was to shoot Martin, why didn’t Zimmerman have the gun in his hand when he got out of the truck? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9632 "2013-04-08T16:09:54Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Thank you for once again highlighting the significance of Zimmerman’s provocation in this case; a provocation he probably would have fled from had he not been toting his gun around. There is nothing at all that can provoke a physical attack. One may only use force in self defence, in which case it is not an attack. Physical attacks are both morally and legally wrong. In this case, we have no reason whatsoever to suspect that Martin was defending himself. There’s no evidence that Zimmerman was a credible, immediate threat, so no evidence that Martin had the right to use violence. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No. He wouldn’t have gotten out of his car in the first place if he hadn’t had his bail-out plan handy. He shouldn’t have to fear getting out of his car in any circumstances, let alone in his own neighbourhood. If having a gun to protect oneself reduces or eliminates that fear, good on him for having one. As it turned out, he needed it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9633 "2013-04-08T16:13:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If Zimmerman’s bail-out plan was to shoot Martin, why didn’t Zimmerman have the gun in his hand when he got out of the truck? > > Regards, > Shodan This would be the plan that also involves “provoking” Martin into attacking him by such obvious threats as losing sight of him and stopping following him. I think **Jack Batty** and others think Zimmerman was chasing Martin through the streets with his gun drawn like Dirty Harry or something, rather than anything resembling the actual events we know happened that evening. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9634 "2013-04-08T16:47:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you claim that Zimmerman provoked Martin into attacking him, and if so, in what manner? I can speculate to a number of things, but the only person still alive who can answer that question is Zimmerman. And his comments on the matter are somewhat biased. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9635 "2013-04-08T17:02:59Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I can speculate to a number of things, but the only person still alive who can answer that question is Zimmerman. And his comments on the matter are somewhat biased. How can you refer to “the significance of Zimmerman’s provocation” when you have no idea if there was any? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9636 "2013-04-08T17:07:37Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Are there streets signs where there are no intersections? > > When was the last time you were driving and wanted to find a street sign, so you exited your vehicle in the middle of a block instead for driving to the intersection? The Socratic method isn’t going to help here. I am asking if in THAT spot where he parked, before he got out of the vehicle - would a street sign be visible from there? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9637 "2013-04-08T17:14:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s not clear to me how the ends of justice are served by an impassioned defense of Zimmerman’s moral culpability. This may be a context issue. There is no impassioned defense of his moral culpability on my part. I don’t believe I have ever said he shared zero responsibility, as a human being with a brain. However I would easily engage in debate that he wasn’t required by society(morally) to show 100% restraint in having a proactive approach to his watch duty. I would do this soley to keep others at bay from storming the ramparts with claims that somehow he failed his moral obligation and that (through the process of a court TV style jury) could eventually lead to a conviction. > [@Bricker](#): > > And i think that accounts for the change of tone which surprises you: we’re talking about different things. As a legal analyst, I was clearly and calmly explaining the various legal principles associated with the criminal case, legal principles which add up to a finding of not guilty. Now I’m discussing – clearly and calmly – the moral implications of an armed man choosing to inject himself into a scene that had the potential to turn into physical violence. That’s a generally perfectly legal choice to make. It’s not the right choice to make under these circumstances. > > In my opinion, of course. I don’t buy that excuse as appropriate, but I won’t press it further. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9638 "2013-04-08T18:07:37Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > How can you refer to “the significance of Zimmerman’s provocation” when you have no idea if there was any? The same way you can refer to Martin’s unprovoked attack on Zimmerman, having no idea what provocations were floated by whom that night. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9639 "2013-04-08T18:21:49Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > The same way you can refer to Martin’s unprovoked attack on Zimmerman, having no idea what provocations were floated by whom that night. I’m just looking at the physical evidence; Zimmerman’s account is biased, so set it aside. What can we reasonably conclude from the physical evidence? That Zimmerman was beaten, and that Martin was not. That Martin’s knuckles were scraped. That there was a single shot fired from less than 8 inches away. So, what scenario reasonably accounts for that evidence? I can only think of one: Martin attacking Zimmerman, and beating him, until Zimmerman shot him. If Martin attacked because Zimmerman was holding him at gunpoint, then Martin would have been fighting for the gun, not punching Zimmerman and beating his head. Mere words are never justification for an attack. If Zimmerman attacked first, he must have done an _amazingly_ poor job of it to land not a single blow. So, even before accounting for other evidence, what provocation could have reasonably occured? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9640 "2013-04-08T19:28:01Z")
And if Zimmerman told that punk/asshole that he wasn’t getting away this time, while making a grab for his jacket? And Martin, said, “fucked if I’m listening to this crazy guy stalking me in the dark,” and popped him one – that would have been a provocation by Zimmerman. One I’m quite willing to give credence to considering his anger management issues and his overblown sense of what a Neighborhood Watch Captain is. It could very well have happened that way. Just as easily as Martin going berserk and attacking Zimmerman just because. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9641 "2013-04-08T20:01:48Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And if Zimmerman told that punk/asshole that he wasn’t getting away this time, while making a grab for his jacket? And Martin, said, “fucked if I’m listening to this crazy guy stalking me in the dark,” and popped him one – that would have been a provocation by Zimmerman. One I’m quite willing to give credence to considering his anger management issues and his overblown sense of what a Neighborhood Watch Captain is. > > It could very well have happened that way. Just as easily as Martin going berserk and attacking Zimmerman just because. If it did happen that way, the blame still lies with Martin. Responding to a grab at your jacket with a punch to the face, then bashing the person’s head on the ground, is in no way justified, legally or morally. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9642 "2013-04-08T20:18:37Z")
If it happened that way, then Zimmerman assaulted Martin (especially if he attempted to detain him through either threat or force – which I also don’t doubt). If it happened that way, then Zimmerman picked a fight - and ended it with a gun when he started losing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=481) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=483)