# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 485
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9683 "2013-04-10T17:22:04Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > By the way, **Evil Economist** , you might want to just stop now. You’ll get more stonewalling (bricks included) here than in those Israel threads in Great Debates. Unfortunately, the sad reality is that most of posters are thirsty to see another black person shot and killed. Of course, they’ll jump in and cry foul, but they know it’s true. Half of these clowns populate the innumerable threads supporting that blacks are intellectually inferior, so it’s natural for them to defend someone who they, unconsciously or secretly, admire for “thinning out the herd”. > … > > - Honesty I alternate between posting to this thread and smashing my face into a brick wall. I think I’m seeing some progress with the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9684 "2013-04-11T02:26:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I think that’s what probably happened – Zimmerman said something insulting to Martin and Martin, offended, punched him. Here it gets harder to assess. We have 2 different versions of the same conversation. Since Martin has shown his willingness to approach Zimmerman I’m inclined to believe some of what Zimmerman stated he said. And answering Martin’s question with a question of why he’s there isn’t meant to be insulting. By that I mean it’s not meant to insult on face value. If Martin did indeed ramp up the rhetoric Zimmerman claims he made then reaching for his phone was both the right thing to do and the wrong thing to do. Martin knows Zimmerman was on the phone to someone earlier while watching him. It ramps up whatever suspicions he has. Zimmerman would be calling the police for the same reason he originally called them. > [@Bricker](#): > > But I don’t think Martin knew that Zimmerman had a gun. Zimmerman knew he had a gun. And Zimmerman was an adult. For those reasons, even though he had a perfect LEGAL right to exit the truck and say something insulting to Martin, he should not have. He knew, or should have known, he was baiting an attack, an attack he was equipped to respond to with deadly force. This goes back to the original conversation. If Zimmerman said something truly inflammatory then DD would have been able to recite at least the jest of it. > [@Bricker](#): > > Not to try to be a mind reader, but it would not shock me to learn that Zimmerman wanted something like that to happen – to teach the “punk”, genus always-get-away, a lesson. That’s truly speculation, though, and it’s not relevant to my determination of moral responsibility. Well honestly if your neighborhood had a spate of crimes that went unsolved you would think that the punks always get away. This is a far cry from wanting to cap someone’s ass. You just want them caught, not dead. If he wanted to shoot Marin he had the opportunity to do it on the first blow. Based on both DD’s version of the conversation and Zimmerman’s it was a very brief exchange. Zimmerman had no chance to talk it down a notch or ramp it up for that matter. Things spiraled out of control. So I’m a bit torn on Z’s responsibility. From his description of Martin approaching his truck it sounds Martin gave him the stink-eye. He didn’t get out of the truck at that time which is a plus in his favor. He did get out of the truck when Martin runs which has the potential of confrontation down the line which is a negative against him. He then stops running at the request of the Dispatcher which is a reasoned response. Back on the plus side. Twice he’s avoided confrontation. Now lets look at Martin. He goes out of his way to confront him the first time and based on the evidence appears to have done it again. He then assaults him in what can only be described as a beat-down. These are not the actions of someone who is afraid. They are the actions of someone who feels challenged. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9685 "2013-04-11T06:24:10Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Unfortunately, the sad reality is that most of posters are thirsty to see another black person shot and killed. and > [@Honesty](#): > > One thing I can say during my time on these boards and this topic is that white people, on average, can’t smell bullshit even if it’s right in front of them. > > - Honesty I really don’t see how you could possibly make a more racist statement. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9686 "2013-04-11T12:15:31Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I base it on inference – specifically, the knowledge that while Martin may have been a bit of a troublemaker, nothing in his past suggests any propensity to simply lash out in attack for no reason at all. The scenario I imagine fits all the pieces – we know Zimmerman was not feeling kindly disposed towards Martin; we know Zimmerman believed Martin to be a potential criminal. It makes perfect sense to imagine that Zimmerman did not keep those feelings hidden when he spoke to Martin. Thanks for your response. Do you have any reaction to Dee Dee’s testimony, who mentions no insults of any sort from either side? Dee Dee described the conversation between Martin and Zimmerman as follows: > [@](#): > > BDLR: And what do you hear Trayvon saying? > > Dee Dee: “Why you followin’ me for?” > > BDLR: “Why you following me for?” > > Dee Dee: Yeah. > > BDLR: And then what happened? > > Dee Dee: I hear this, ya know, man… it wa’ like a ol’ man… > > BDLR: OK. > > Dee Dee: …say, ‘Wha’ you doin’ aroun’ here?’ [mimicking a man’s voice—lowering the pitch of her voice] > > BDLR: OK, so you could definitely tell another voice that was not Trayvon’s. > > Dee Dee: Yeah, yeah… > > BDLR: And you heard this other voice say what? > > Dee Dee: Yeah: “What are you doin’ aroun’ here?” > > BDLR: “What are you doing around here?” OK. > > Dee Dee: And I call Trayvon…’Trayvon, wha’s goin’ on, whas goin’ on?’ > > BDLR: This is you saying that… > > Dee Dee: Yeah. > > BDLR: OK. > > Dee Dee: Then..I callin’ him…he didn’t answer. > > BDLR: No answer from Trayvon. > > Dee Dee: Yeah..and I hear, I hear a sound like “bump.” You cou’ hear that Trayvon bump…somebody bumped Trayvon, ’cause I could hear the grass. One would expect that, if Zimmerman had said anything insulting to Martin, Dee Dee would have mentioned it. Nor is there any mention of Zimmerman saying anything to Martin before the fight - note that Dee Dee only has occasion to describe Zimmerman’s voice when she describes the only words she heard Zimmerman speak, just before the attack. They were never close enough to exchange words, until Martin came back from “right by his father house” and asked Zimmerman “Why you following me for?” and Zimmerman responds “What are you doing 'round here?” Then boom, the fight starts. And again, the evidence shows that the only blows struck were struck by Martin. Perhaps it does not seem to you to be likely that Martin would attack a stranger simply because that stranger asked him what he was doing, Yet that seems to be what happened, as far as can be told from the evidence available. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9687 "2013-04-11T14:02:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Here it gets harder to assess. We have 2 different versions of the same conversation. Since Martin has shown his willingness to approach Zimmerman I’m inclined to believe some of what Zimmerman stated he said. And answering Martin’s question with a question of why he’s there isn’t meant to be insulting. By that I mean it’s not meant to insult on face value. This reminds me of a joke: An elderly lady calls the phone company to complain about the foul language used by workers on the street near her home. Questioned, the foreman submits this account of the incident:[indent]Well, me and Larry was working on the booster unit and Larry was climbing the pole when he accidentally dropped his toolbag right on my head. I didn’t have no helmet on at the time, so I looked up at him and said, “Really, Larry, you must learn to be more careful.”[/indent] Perhaps, faced with consequences even more severe than a reprimand at work, Zimmerman might have chosen to retell his own story in a way that minimized his own rudeness? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9688 "2013-04-11T14:04:30Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Thanks for your response. Do you have any reaction to Dee Dee’s testimony, who mentions no insults of any sort from either side? > > Dee Dee described the conversation between Martin and Zimmerman as follows: > > One would expect that, if Zimmerman had said anything insulting to Martin, Dee Dee would have mentioned it. Nor is there any mention of Zimmerman saying anything to Martin before the fight - note that Dee Dee only has occasion to describe Zimmerman’s voice when she describes the only words she heard Zimmerman speak, just before the attack. How do you know it was just before the attack? Isn’t it possible that there was additional conversation after the phone went dead? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9689 "2013-04-11T14:59:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > How do you know it was just before the attack? Isn’t it possible that there was additional conversation after the phone went dead? There was additional conversation, if you want to call it that. Zimmerman was screaming for help (corroborated by a witness). But Dee Dee describes Trayvon bumping - and then immediately amends it to “Trayvon being bumped”. The bump is the attack, which we know from the injuries came from Martin. Dee Dee then says she heard “the grass”, which may mean the sounds of the struggle, but does not mean conversation of any sort. Keep in mind that Martin’s phone went dead somewhere between 7:16 and 7:17pm, and the first 911 call about the fight was at 7:16:11, and that cries for help were heard on that call. And the only gunshot fired that night was heard on a 911 call recorded at 7:16:55. ([Cite - it’s Wiki, but the links are listed - see footnotes 15 and 16](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin).) Assuming Zimmerman only started crying for help after Martin attacked him, Martin’s phone would have shut off sometime after 7:16:11 and before 7:15:55. That fits Dee Dee’s testimony. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9690 "2013-04-11T15:57:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > There was additional conversation, if you want to call it that. Zimmerman was screaming for help (corroborated by a witness). > > But Dee Dee describes Trayvon bumping - and then immediately amends it to “Trayvon being bumped”. The bump is the attack, which we know from the injuries came from Martin. Why is that? Why couldn’t the bump be some less contentious event that preceded the actual combat? > [@](#): > > Keep in mind that Martin’s phone went dead somewhere between 7:16 and 7:17pm, and the first 911 call about the fight was at 7:16:11, and that cries for help were heard on that call. And the only gunshot fired that night was heard on a 911 call recorded at 7:16:55. ([Cite - it’s Wiki, but the links are listed - see footnotes 15 and 16](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin).) Are the times as recorded by the 911 system the same as the cell phone system? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9691 "2013-04-11T18:21:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why is that? Why couldn’t the bump be some less contentious event that preceded the actual combat? Because the first 911 call reporting the fight was at 7:16:11. So the fight must have started before that. Probably a few seconds before that, to give the caller time to realize there was a fight going on, get to a phone, and dial 911. So the very earliest Martin’s phone could have cut off leaves only four or five seconds during which Zimmerman could have said something insulting (without Dee Dee hearing it), **and** Martin punching Zimmerman, knocking him down, getting on top of him (verified by an eyewitness), bashing his head on the ground, and generally getting the better of the fight to the point where Zimmerman was screaming for help. > [@](#): > > Are the times as recorded by the 911 system the same as the cell phone system? That, I don’t know. I assume they are getting their time off the call servers, which (where I work) get their time from Microsoft or somesuch. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9692 "2013-04-11T18:46:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Perhaps, faced with consequences even more severe than a reprimand at work, Zimmerman might have chosen to retell his own story in a way that minimized his own rudeness? I would think that is accurate of both parties giving their account. How would DD retell the story if she heard Zimmerman inciting anything? How would she tell it if Martin said what Zimmerman claims he said? > [@Bricker](#): > > Why is that? Why couldn’t the bump be some less contentious event that preceded the actual combat? It could. That falls under the heading of anything could have happened. But the length of conversation that Zimmerman describes is mirrored by DD’s account and the time lines between phone records appear to line up. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9693 "2013-04-11T20:10:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because the first 911 call reporting the fight was at 7:16:11. So the fight must have started before that. Probably a few seconds before that, to give the caller time to realize there was a fight going on, get to a phone, and dial 911. > > So the very earliest Martin’s phone could have cut off leaves only four or five seconds during which Zimmerman could have said something insulting (without Dee Dee hearing it), **and** Martin punching Zimmerman, knocking him down, getting on top of him (verified by an eyewitness), bashing his head on the ground, and generally getting the better of the fight to the point where Zimmerman was screaming for help. That’s only true if you assume the two independent time sources are identical or within a few seconds of each other. > [@](#): > > I assume they are getting their time off the call servers, which (where I work) get their time from Microsoft or somesuch. Maybe “or somesuch” is a different source for each. Maybe they’re fifty seconds apart. You have no particular reason to assume they’re identical. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9694 "2013-04-11T20:19:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I would think that is accurate of both parties giving their account. How would DD retell the story if she heard Zimmerman inciting anything? How would she tell it if Martin said what Zimmerman claims he said? > > It could. That falls under the heading of anything could have happened. But the length of conversation that Zimmerman describes is mirrored by DD’s account and the time lines between phone records appear to line up. You asked why I believed what I did. The answer is that Martin’s utterly unprovoked attack makes no sense. The rules of general human behavior suggest to me that it’s likely something caused him to attack. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9695 "2013-04-11T20:35:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You asked why I believed what I did. > > The answer is that Martin’s utterly unprovoked attack makes no sense. The rules of general human behavior suggest to me that it’s likely something caused him to attack. You’re forgetting that it’s perfectly normal for \*urban \*youth to randomly attack passers-by without provocation. Ask anyone. Well, not anyone. I mean, ask any of the people posting to this thread. Well, not any of the people posting to this thread; ask those who have used words like _thug_, _urban_, or _gansta_ in their posts. They’ll tell you how it is. They’ll probably also have some great fried chicken jokes, that they’ll tell you while no one else is listening. ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9696 "2013-04-11T20:41:12Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You’re forgetting that it’s perfectly normal for \*urban \*youth to randomly attack passers-by without provocation. Ask anyone. Well, not anyone. I mean, ask any of the people posting to this thread. Well, not any of the people posting to this thread; ask those who have used words like _thug_, _urban_, or _gansta_ in their posts. They’ll tell you how it is. They’ll probably also have some great fried chicken jokes, that they’ll tell you while no one else is listening. Most stereotypes are rooted in some truth… just sayin… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9697 "2013-04-11T21:00:21Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > Most stereotypes are rooted in some truth… just sayin… It’s so kind of you (and **Lumpy** ) to share your true feelings with us, bless your heart. I can think of a board where you’ll fit right in. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2013, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9698 "2013-04-11T21:21:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > It’s so kind of you (and **Lumpy** ) to share your true feelings with us, bless your heart. I can think of a board where you’ll fit right in. But, don’t you know… [black people are risky](http://www.mediaite.com/online/george-zimmermans-brother-pimping-comparison-of-trayvon-martin-and-alleged-georgia-baby-killer/)! ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9699 "2013-04-12T02:06:56Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > and > > I really don’t see how you could possibly make a more racist statement. It’s 100% true. Here, let show you that you and most white people are unable to see bullshit. Follow along, please: Step 1: Go to this [link](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsV1u25eXR4). Step 2: Watch the dialogue at 00:08 seconds Step 3: Do you smell it? Step 4. Of course you don’t. I bet you’re so blind that your unable to see that there’s a lot in common between her testimony: her gestures and style of speech with that of Zimmerman on Hannity and his own webpage. Again, I know it’ll be blind to you (and 90% of the readers here) but if it’s racist to say that white people can’t smell bullshit, then damnit, I guess I’m a racist. I’ll go on further to say that most minorities could take one look at this interview or the Zimmerman interview and can tell both are lying through their teeth. Precisely the reason why I think, on average, minorities don’t vote Republican - they can smell that fake, superficial bullshit wafting straight off the television screen, a trait and quality that most non-poor whites lack. Just my opinion \. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9700 "2013-04-12T04:04:56Z")
I’m white, and I can smell bullshit right now. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9701 "2013-04-12T04:09:01Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > It’s 100% true. Here, let show you that you and most white people are unable to see bullshit. There is no way I’m going to click on a link from you during one of your racist rants. > [@Honesty](#): > > but if it’s racist to say that white people can’t smell bullshit, then damnit, I guess I’m a racist. It is. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9702 "2013-04-12T04:40:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > The answer is that Martin’s utterly unprovoked attack makes no sense. The rules of general human behavior suggest to me that it’s likely something caused him to attack. What state of mind do you attribute to Martin when he approaches Zimmerman’s truck and then again when he’s walking back to his truck? How do you think someone who walks back and circles your car is going to react to being asked why he’s in the neighborhood. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=484) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=486)