# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 488
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9743 "2013-04-13T18:26:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, please cite that Zimmerman has a criminal record, as I’ve seen nothing to suggest he has one. Sure. Click [here](http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/), [here](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite), or [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1335984.html). > [@](#): > > In 2005, Zimmerman, then 20, was arrested and charged with “resisting officer with violence” and “battery of law enforcement officer,” both which are third-degree felonies. The charge was reduced to “resisting officer without violence” and then waived when he entered an alcohol education program. Contemporaneous accounts indicate he shoved an officer who was questioning a friend for alleged underage drinking at an Orange County bar. > In August 2005, Zimmerman’s ex-fiancee, Veronica Zuazo, filed a civil motion for a restraining order alleging domestic violence. Zimmerman counterfiled for a restraining order against Zuazo. The competing claims were resolved with both restraining orders being granted. > In December 2006, Zimmerman was charged with speeding. The case was dismissed when the officer failed to show up in court. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9744 "2013-04-13T18:28:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > I’m pretty sure I quoted your entire paragraph without any edits at all. In fact, I just checked, and I did. No need to apologize for your false accusations, I forgive you, even though your false accusation was equivalent to lynching me. You didn’t quote my post at all in the post I replied to. > [@](#): > > In terms of evidence, what sort of evidence do we need before we can start suspecting someone of murder? A body? A murder weapon? A murder charge? We’re not talking about suspecting, we’re talking about accusing. They are significantly different things. > [@](#): > > Yeah, those sounds like things you \*should \*do. On the \*should \*scale, where do you rank stalking the suspected (but innocent!) perp in the dark while carrying a loaded weapon, getting out of your car to confront him, and then shooting him to death? What does that hypothetical have to do with the case at hand? > [@](#): > > Gosh, yes, let me spell it out again. Because you clearly paid so much attention the last hundred times I spelled it out. Perhaps 101 is the magic number? You’ve not once spelled it out. But well done for pretending you have, maybe someone reading will believe you. I’ll ask again - what evidence leads you to believe Zimmerman was not acting in self defence? Remember, Zimmerman did not, in fact stalk Martin nor confront him, and that carrying a loaded weapon is both legal and normal in the jurisdiction involved. So, you’re down to claiming that, because he shot him, it can’t have been self defence, which is patently ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9745 "2013-04-13T18:34:14Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Sure. Click [here](http://rollingout.com/culture/george-zimmerman-son-of-a-retired-judge-has-3-closed-arrests/), [here](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/03/27/10894561-zimmerman-accused-of-domestic-violence-fighting-with-a-police-officer?lite), or [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/09/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin_n_1335984.html). Did you misunderstand my question, or do you not know what a criminal record is? All three of those cites, plus all the others I’ve read, make it clear he does not have one. Please show me where you’ve seen that Zimmerman has been shown to be a criminal. That is, found guilty of a crime by a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9746 "2013-04-13T18:57:14Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Did you misunderstand my question, or do you not know what a criminal record is? WP and their semantics, I swear. What would be the exact term you would use for the charges filed against him by the police officer he shoved? You can answer it in a sentence “It’s not a criminal record it is a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_”. Thanks. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9747 "2013-04-13T18:57:42Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I know, right? Here’s another from the racist extraordinaire: The rate of autism is extraordinarily low in minorities (blacks and hispanics) and, if you look at the brains of autistic white children, what do you see? You see an atrophy of neural regions that are involved in social reasoning and a rerouting of those neurons to other parts of the brain like verbal reasoning or object recognition. Do you know where you find the highest rate of new autistic cases? Silicon Valley. It would seem, as luck would have it, that mating two really smart white people yields, more likely than black or hispanic parents, a child that’s really smart and intelligent but with less social reasoning than their parents. Hitler would be proud. His prototypical uebermensch is nothing more than blond-haired, blue-eyed autistic that has the math acuity of Einstein and the verbal reasoning of Frost but the social maturity of an adolescent. > > - Honesty This is full of so much wrongness, **Honesty**. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9748 "2013-04-13T19:05:01Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Clearly, I don’t. What is a criminal record? What would be the exact term you would use for the charges filed against him by the police officer he shoved? It’s not a criminal record it is a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_? Is what I’m looking for. > > Thanks. > > - Honesty Hmm. I’ve had a bit of a look and it seems the term “criminal record” covers much wider territory in the US than here in the UK, where it’s specifically a list of convictions or cautions (which necessitate an admission of guilt). There doesn’t appear to be a specific thing called a criminal record there. So, I take back my claim that you don’t know what it is, and offer my apologies. My point is that Zimmerman has not been convicted of any crime. It’s my opinion that the fact that he’s been arrested, and had charges filed against him, is proof of nothing much.. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9749 "2013-04-13T19:05:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Being mentally ill doesn’t mean you don’t “have your wits about you”, and attitudes like yours just make it harder for people to seek help when they need it. Anyone NOT seeking help for their mental illness because they want to hold on their guns are precisely the individuals we don’t want having guns. I’m sorry, buddy, I’m an avid supporter of the 2nd amendment (and even support open carry and concealed) but crazy people should NOT be able to purchase guns. Zimmerman is just another reason why having someone with ADHD with gun who lacks the the impulse control to wait for the cops to arrive is a very bad idea. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9750 "2013-04-13T19:06:46Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I know, right? Here’s another from the racist extraordinaire: The rate of autism is extraordinarily low in minorities (blacks and hispanics) and, if you look at the brains of autistic white children, what do you see? You see an atrophy of neural regions that are involved in social reasoning and a rerouting of those neurons to other parts of the brain like verbal reasoning or object recognition. Do you know where you find the highest rate of new autistic cases? Silicon Valley. It would seem, as luck would have it, that mating two really smart white people yields, more likely than black or hispanic parents, a child that’s really smart and intelligent but with less social reasoning than their parents. Hitler would be proud. His prototypical uebermensch is nothing more than blond-haired, blue-eyed autistic that has the math acuity of Einstein and the verbal reasoning of Frost but the social maturity of an adolescent. [http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/02/20/autism-diagnosis-often-occurs-later-for-black-children](http://health.usnews.com/health-news/news/articles/2012/02/20/autism-diagnosis-often-occurs-later-for-black-children) Lack of access to quality, affordable and culturally knowledgeable health care are among the reasons for the delay in a diagnosis of autism in black children, said researcher Martell Teasley, an associate professor in the College of Social Work at Florida State University in Tallahassee. Teasley also suggested that social stigma attached to mental health issues within the black community may add to the problem. … \*\*The rate of autism diagnosis is the same among children of all racial groups, one in 110, according to estimates. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9751 "2013-04-13T19:20:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You didn’t quote my post at all in the post I replied to. You are of course completely wrong. Allow me to demonstrate: [QUOTE=Steophan] [QUOTE=Evil Economist] [QUOTE=Steophan] I know this isn’t a court of law here, but if you’re going to accuse someone of murder, you should probably have some evidence, otherwise you’re no better than a lynch mob. [/quote] Wait, even accusing someone of murder is equivalent to lynching them? Wow, a prosecutors’ job is more difficult than I’d realized. Question: if I only suspect that someone may be guilty, but don’t accuse them, is that equivalent to masturbating on them and then setting them on fire? [/quote] I see you didn’t bother to quote me accurately, as I referred to accusing someone without evidence. Either you are doing that here, or you have evidence that Zimmerman wasn’t acting in self defence. [/quote] Now, at this point you should probably ask yourself what else you are completely wrong about. Also, I was willing to forgive you once, but you have now lynch mobbed me twice. My neck is hurting. Time to apologize. > [@](#): > > We’re not talking about suspecting, we’re talking about accusing. They are significantly different things. OK, with what evidence is it acceptable to accuse someone of murder? A corpse? A murder weapon? Once the state charges them with murder? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9752 "2013-04-13T19:30:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Economist](#): > > You are of course completely wrong. Allow me to demonstrate: > Now, at this point you should probably ask yourself what else you are completely wrong about. > > Also, I was willing to forgive you once, but you have now lynch mobbed me twice. My neck is hurting. Time to apologize. Nope. This - “Wait, even accusing someone of murder is equivalent to lynching them?” is what you said, and that’s not what I claimed. > [@](#): > > OK, with what evidence is it acceptable to accuse someone of murder? A corpse? A murder weapon? Once the state charges them with murder? There are several elements to a murder charge, so you’d need evidence for all of them. Most of them are, in this case, trivial, as we know that Zimmerman killed Martin, and that it happened in the jurisdiction that’s trying him. As he’s claimed it was self defence, you also need evidence that it wasn’t. Because, if he was acting in self defence, it was not murder. Not all jurisdictions work like that, but Florida does, and as that’s where the act occurred, that’s the law that matters. You are continually ignoring this law, and want Zimmerman charged and punished anyway. There’s a term for people who want extrajudicial punishment of people they dislike, even if they’ve done nothing wrong… Can you figure out what I mean? Of course, if you have such evidence, please show it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9753 "2013-04-13T20:10:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nope. This - “Wait, even accusing someone of murder is equivalent to lynching them?” is what you said, and that’s not what I claimed. Wow. Dude, have some self-respect. You’re wrong, and you’ve been wrong repeatedly; fucking own up to it. You claimed, and I **quote** : “I see you didn’t bother to quote me accurately.” When I shit on that claim you then changed your tune and said, and I **quote** : “You didn’t quote my post at all in the post I replied to.” That was shit too. Now you’re claiming a third thing, which I’m not going to bother reading, 'cause, as Mark Twain might say, you’ll just enjoy it." I’m beginning to understand why you’re so confused that people might think Zimmerman might have some moral culpability. How the fuck did I get tricked into responding to your posts? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9754 "2013-04-13T20:24:01Z")
I see you’re still not responding to the part about having no evidence. Strange how you’d ignore that and focus on irrelevancies… you do have the evidence, right? ---
**Author:** ![Saraya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Saraya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saraya)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9755 "2013-04-13T20:44:00Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Diamond in a rough, perhaps? There’s a few white people who can smell it,[Pamela Meyer](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_6vDLq64gE), Bill Maher, Judge Judy, and Bill Clinton. I’m sure there are more who can smell it but I’m convinced their numbers are far and few in-between. There are a host of studies showing that people who come from disadvantaged backgrounds tend to be better at reading facial cues, interpreting body language, and generally able to gauge truthfulness of an individual just by looking at them. I think that this is an innate mechanism, an intrinsic piece of “lie detector” software embedded in our brains that white people, on average, have lost to the annals of time. It’s precisely the reason why they look at the Martins and claim the family aren’t concerned with justice for their dead son, the part of the brain that says “this is truth” is non-existent, malfunctioning, or was never fully developed in the first place. > > - Honesty Those four sound like they should be addendum to Bernard Goldberg’s book “110 people screwing up America” > [@Steophan](#): > > I see you’re still not responding to the part about having no evidence. Strange how you’d ignore that and focus on irrelevancies… you do have the evidence, right? We had this problem with betenoire didn’t we? I figured out why Honesty is throwing out nonsense left and right now, he wants to get to 200 pages. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9756 "2013-04-14T04:29:46Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Not valid, the amount that was found in his sytem ( \< 5 ng/ml of THC) was clinically insignificant. > > I could take a bong hit and blow it in your face and you’ll have that amount in your body. It won’t stick in court and no doctor worth his salt will tell any jury that having \< 5 nanograms of THC in serum is indicative of chronic marijuana use or any inebriation during the altercation. :rolleyes: Nobody said he was under the influence. His mother made accusations that Martin’s character was being maligned when in fact the information was true. But yes, in your world everybody goes around blowing marijuana smoke in other peoples faces without their knowledge or walk around with empty bags of pot and other people’s possessions in their school bag. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9757 "2013-04-14T05:10:38Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > We had this problem with betenoire didn’t we? > I figured out why Honesty is throwing out nonsense left and right now, he wants to get to 200 pages. he doesn’t have to argue the case based on the facts because he has special powers of deduction. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9758 "2013-04-14T12:59:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he doesn’t have to argue the case based on the facts because he has special powers of deduction. No, it’s just that whenever an altercation between someone black and someone white leaves the black person dead, it’s always racism. 100.00% of the time, without a single recorded exception in history. And if you dispute this you just can’t smell bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9759 "2013-04-14T15:52:25Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No, it’s just that whenever an altercation between someone black and someone white leaves the black person dead, it’s always racism. 100.00% of the time, without a single recorded exception in history. And if you dispute this you just can’t smell bullshit. Even worse, even if that were true it wouldn’t be relevant here. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9760 "2013-04-14T16:39:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he doesn’t have to argue the case based on the facts because he has special powers of deduction. Indeed, I do. When I watched the interview with Zimmerman and Hannity, my bullshit meter went off the charts. I’m not the only one. People here have said it including political commentators like Bill Maher. It grieves me that you and other people cannot see the bullshit when it’s right in front of you. In order to go from Point A to Point B, you need empirical evidence at each and every step, unwilling or unable to use insight or common sense. I also encourage you to pick up _Blink_ by Malcolm Gladwell, it’s an excellent read and the book touches on a lot of what we’ve been discussing here. The reason I think you lack insight or “powers of deduction” is likely because you’ve endured as much strife and adversity as the Romneys. Let me guess: white, grew up with two parents in household, 50k+ a year, have very few minority friends, private schooling, and your childhood was marked by [concerted cultivation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concerted_cultivation)? Don’t worry, I’m not psychic, it’s call it insight. Moving on… Just a few posts ago, someone claimed Judge Judy was one of the 110 people messing up America. Who says that unless they’re completely irrational OR unable to see the truth when its right in front of them. I think it’s the latter, which is why I must emphatically say again that white people cannot differentiate the truth from a lie, to save their lives. If you need any proof of this fact, take a look at how long this thread is. Hundreds upon hundreds of posts and still 95% you think Trayvon was a gangster thug who is a troublemaker and a thief despite there being NO evidence of that; on the flip side, 95% of you hand-wave Zimmerman’s criminal record, his beating on his wife, his bullying of colleagues, his molestation of his cousin, his prescription of uppers, downers, and antipsychotics, his lying to the State of Florida regarding his donations, his shoving of a police officer, pimping the Internet for donations, his poor grades (he got D’s) in criminal justice classes, and so on. If ANY of these were true for Trayvon, this thread would’ve died months ago.Zimmerman is a fake, a liar, and a narcissist. It’s clear as day, and if you can’t see it, I’m convinced you never will. White people don’t say anything about Zimmerman’s bullshit because they don’t smell it, instead, they focus their attention to smelling Trayvon’s shit (which exist, for sure, but certainly not on the scale or stink of Zimmerman’s) or, worse, maligning his parents as greedy or profiteering. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9761 "2013-04-14T16:46:42Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > No, it’s just that whenever an altercation between someone black and someone white leaves the black person dead, it’s always racism. 100.00% of the time, without a single recorded exception in history. There’s over 400 years of history on why that might be true. Let me help you. 1501 - 1865 1866 - 1895 1896 - 1964 1964 - Present > [@Lumpy](#): > > And if you dispute this you just can’t smell bullshit. Damn, right. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9762 "2013-04-14T17:52:39Z")
Earlier, \*\*Saraya \*\*and \*\*Lumpy \*\*made some disgusting, ignorant, classless racist statements, that revealed their true (lack of) character. In the time since they made those comments, not a single of the other “pro-Zimmerman” posters has bothered to condemn or refute those contemptible racist comments. Instead, we have posters like **Magiver** chatting away with them as though nothing nasty was said. I guess a certain subset of society lacks the self-respect to denounce scum. By an odd coincidence, those same posters think Zimmerman lacks moral culpability in the shooting death of a black teenager. Someone once said “sports don’t build character, they reveal it.” I think the same could be said of internet comments. By the way, **Steophan** , you lied repeatedly, were caught by me, and lacked the character to admit your lies. I am not in the least surprised that you also lack the character to condemn \*\*Saraya \*\*and **Lumpy**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=487) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=489)