# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 499
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9963 "2013-04-29T04:50:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I personally think it was the screams that set him off. The screams indicated that he wasn’t fooling around with a gangsta thug, but a kid scared out of his mind. And the screams alerted everyone in the vicinity of this fact. He knew it was just a matter of seconds before people rushed out to answer that cry for help and then he’d be in trouble. Martin’s actions indicate he was the opposite of afraid. He approached Zimmerman twice. That is an indication of aggression and it’s born out in his vicious attack. We know from the conversation he wasn’t threatened. > [@monstro](#): > > I don’t think Zimmerman’s repetillian brain was even thinking about the cops. Reptilian brain? wow. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9964 "2013-04-29T06:05:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Yes, with his bare hands. We have the evidence of what he did with them. You can do a lot of damage after a sucker punch. > > I’ve experienced exactly what Zimmerman experienced from punks. The only difference is that the sucker punch didn’t land as intended and I was able to deal with it with minimal personal injury. As an adult, have you ever been engaged in mortal combat with a teenager after you asked them a question? Do you know anyone else in your life personally? I suspect you don’t know anyone because most sane adults have the ability to effectively communicate with minors without inciting violence. Since there’s no evidence that Trayvon received any martial arts training, formal or otherwise coupled with the age and weight differential, I’m just not buying that he got his ass beat that badly by a teenager. I’m also not getting anything from Trayvon to suggest someone who is angry and/or violent. You have to put yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes, **Magiver**. If you just shot a guy and you were positive that there were no eye-witnesses, why wouldn’t you say the guy attacked you while you weren’t looking, that you heroically defended yourself, that you had no choice but to end his life, and he clutched his chest and uttered “you got me” before falling deathly still. I don’t got to be a lawyer to figure out that when a defendant is a sole witness to a crime, he has every incentive to muddy to waters, to distort what occurred, to displace culpability and put the blame on the victim. His dry, unemotional replay of the events to the Sanford Police Department is indicative of doing just that. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9965 "2013-04-29T09:56:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Reptilian brain? wow. Do you need me to remind you how often you and your friends have intimated that Martin was a juvenile delinquent…someone so intellectually inferior and socially retarded that it is impossible he said “I beg you to stop”? Or how about the “funny” zinger about how his parents are going to use any settlement money to be Cadillacs? Wow indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9966 "2013-04-29T11:15:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We can’t ignore what Zimmerman said, though. Unless we want to wave away everything. Not ignore, no. But we can’t prove what was or was not said, all we can do is see how well Zimmerman’s account matches other evidence. As for Zimmerman transcribing what Martin said, [the fight-or-flight response is destructive to memory](http://www.healthdaily.co.uk/health-matters/2012/03/13/memory-impaired-in-fight-or-flight-situations). > [@](#): > > Police officers, witnesses and victims of crime suffer loss of memory, recognition and awareness of their environment if they have had to use bursts of physical energy in stressful situations. Officers who have to chase down a suspect, for example, were found to struggle to remember details of the incident. > > … > > “Investigators and courts need to understand that an officer who cannot provide details about an encounter where physical exertion has played a role is not necessarily being deceptive or uncooperative. An officer’s memory errors or omissions after an intense physical struggle should not unjustly affect his or her credibility.” My employer, a financial institution, conducts annual robbery training for all staff. One thing that gets continuously harped on is the need for all tellers to have their heads up and watching the lobby. Why? Because when it comes to accurately describing a robber, a half-aware teller across the room who doesn’t realize that a robbery is occurring does a better job than the teller who is being robbed. There are tools to combat this effect, such as the [self-administered interview](http://metro.co.uk/2007/04/25/brain-can-freeze-crime-scene-memory-307029/), in which the subject records what happened as soon as possible. My financial institution does something very similar, called an Identicard. It’s unclear if Zimmerman did anything like this after the incident ended, if not, his memory of it is likely unreliable. Expecting him to recall exactly what was said, how much time passed, the sequence of blows, and such isn’t realistic, given what we know about the effect stated above. > [@monstro](#): > > If you don’t know nuthin’ about the condition of the scary monster who just attacked you visciously (he didn’t know Trayvon had been hit, he didn’t know if Trayvon was armed, he didn’t know if Trayvon was truly surrendering), why would you get on top of him? You don’t know nothing, you know that he’s no longer on top of you beating your head. The reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily harm has ended. > [@monstro](#): > > Why wouldn’t you take advantage of the monster’s surrender by running away? Because you have a joint problem and a head wound, because the police are on their way and you don’t want your attacker to escape, because you’re an ex-bouncer and your first instinct is physical restraint? Are you skeptical of Zimmerman’s account that he jumped on Martin? If not, why do _you_ think he did it? > [@monstro](#): > > Or at the very least, continue to scream your fool head off? If Zimmerman didn’t know if he’d shot Martin, why did he stop screaming so abruptly? Because the lethal threat was over, or because he just didn’t think of it? This is the sort of after-the-fact, Monday morning quarterbacking that I don’t think is fair to anyone in such an insane, stressful situation. Who knows how the heck they would react moments after someone was beating your head and you drew and fired your pistol, and the person was no longer atop you? > [@monstro](#): > > Doesn’t this seem suspicious to you? No, not particularly, especially compared to the rival explanation that Zimmerman decided to commit murder to avoid a brandishing charge after he’d been beaten, fired a single shot, and determined in the dark that it was a shot to the heart. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9967 "2013-04-29T11:20:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > “Trayvon, why did the witness see you on top of Zimmerman, if all you did was punch him?” > > "After he fell, he ran after me and tackled me. We wrestled in the grass for awhile. That was when I started screaming for help. He kept grabbing at me, and I kind of pinned his arms to the ground to get him to stop. Maybe that’s when the witness saw us. > > “Then he pushed me off. That’s when I looked over and saw this kid with a dog watching us.” > > There actually was a kid who claims he saw the two of them apart. His story does not match Zimmerman’s. Funny that. Wouldn’t Martin have bruises and abrasions from being tackled, then wrestling, and facing blows to the point where he had to restrain Zimmerman’s arms? Bear in mind that the shot was fired from between 1 and 18 inches away. That makes sense if Martin is still atop Zimmerman when it’s fired, it makes less sense if Martin has been pushed off, or if it’s a cold-blooded execution. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9968 "2013-04-29T11:28:05Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Since there’s no evidence that Trayvon received any martial arts training, formal or otherwise coupled with the age and weight differential, I’m just not buying that he got his ass beat that badly by a teenager. I’m also not getting anything from Trayvon to suggest someone who is angry and/or violent. Are you trying to claim that Martin Didn’t cause the injuries we know Zimmerman to have? Good luck with that one. We know Martin was capable of violence because we’ve seen Zimmerman’s injured face. > [@](#): > > You have to put yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes, **Magiver**. If you just shot a guy and you were positive that there were no eye-witnesses, why wouldn’t you say the guy attacked you while you weren’t looking, that you heroically defended yourself, that you had no choice but to end his life, and he clutched his chest and uttered “you got me” before falling deathly still. The thing is, I’d also say those things if they were true. Which is why you have to prove them false, not simply unlikely. > [@](#): > > I don’t got to be a lawyer to figure out that when a defendant is a sole witness to a crime, he has every incentive to muddy to waters, to distort what occurred, to displace culpability and put the blame on the victim. His dry, unemotional replay of the events to the Sanford Police Department is indicative of doing just that. > > - Honesty No, but you do need at least the minimal legal understanding to know why you can’t base a case on “well he _might_ be lying, so he _must_ be guilty”. Having the motive to lie isn’t proof that one is lying. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9969 "2013-04-29T14:27:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Are you trying to claim that Martin Didn’t cause the injuries we know Zimmerman to have? Good luck with that one. We know Martin was capable of violence because we’ve seen Zimmerman’s injured face. > > The thing is, I’d also say those things if they were true. Which is why you have to prove them false, not simply unlikely. > > No, but you do need at least the minimal legal understanding to know why you can’t base a case on “well he _might_ be lying, so he _must_ be guilty”. Having the motive to lie isn’t proof that one is lying. Wasn’t there an eye witness who stepped outside, even saying something, but was ignored by the person on top? If so, Zimmerman, and Trayvon, might have been aware of at least one eye witness. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9970 "2013-04-29T16:17:00Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I think the guy with the injuries is going to get the benefit of the doubt over the guy without them. Well, that’s good news for Martin. The gaping hole in his chest is far worse than any bumps ‘n’ scrapes George got. I find it quite interesting that George fired exactly one shot - a direct hit, mind you, a perfect bulls-eye. If it was me, and I was terrified for my very life, and I had a gun, you can bet your bottom dollar I’m emptying the clip. Even more amazing is that George fires exactly one shot, claiming to be scared for his life, yet stops screaming the -instant - he pulls the trigger. He then claims that he didn’t even think his shot had hit Martin - so the threat to his life is still there, right in front of him! Yet not only is he not screaming, he jumps right back in the fray to jump on top of Martin, the thug that just seconds ago was beating his head into concrete and choking him to the point of ‘feeling like I was going to pass out’. Absolutely amazing that he could be on the verge of passing out yet still be so acutely aware of the situation to make such clear, precise judgements in the midst of a fight-to-the-death with a sudden assailant. It’s quite curious that George gives zero mention of what he was doing with his hands & arms the entire time that Martin was supposedly choking him & beating his head into the ground. If he was blocking the blows, how was Martin choking him? If Martin was in fact grabbing his head and banging it into the ground, why isn’t George fighting back? He outweights Martin by a good 40 pounds or more. Martin has essentlially -no- offensive wounds, and George has zero defensive wounds. Hmmm… We’ve already gone over how it’s physically impossible for George to have pinned Martin’s arm with his right arm, then draw his gun out with his right hand, when it was tucked away behind & beneath him, all while using his right arm to keep pinning Martins’ arm. And there’s the complete lack of any explanation for what he was doing in the two minutes from the end of the NEN call to the actual fight - George desperately needs that two minute gap to disappear… Amazing how there are key inconsistencies at every single major point in the story, all that seem to paint George in a more flattering light… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9971 "2013-04-29T16:44:55Z")
Glad you’re back. You never answered my questions: > [@Human Action](#): > > Let’s see: screaming is risky, calling the police is risky, drawing a pistol is illegal, running is risky (you’re turning your back, and the other guy is probably faster in this case, being taller and lighter). > > So, what risk-free action should Zimmerman have taken, again? > [@Human Action](#): > > Any evidence that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin? Looking forward to your replies. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well, that’s good news for Martin. The gaping hole in his chest is far worse than any bumps ‘n’ scrapes George got. Out of context. I thought it was clear I was referring to the police arriving to find Zimmerman bloodied and holding Martin at gunpoint. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > I find it quite interesting that George fired exactly one shot - a direct hit, mind you, a perfect bulls-eye. If it was me, and I was terrified for my very life, and I had a gun, you can bet your bottom dollar I’m emptying the clip. I find it interesting that both you and **you with the face** view firing _fewer_ shots as evidence of murder. Remember the context in which the gun was fired: Martin atop Zimmerman. Shot fired, Martin no longer atop Zimmerman. Lethal threat gone. Not continuing to shoot after regaining his footing is, again, evidence that the shot was fired to stop a threat. It’s consistent with self-defense. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Even more amazing is that George fires exactly one shot, claiming to be scared for his life, yet stops screaming the -instant - he pulls the trigger. He then claims that he didn’t even think his shot had hit Martin - so the threat to his life is still there, right in front of him! Yet not only is he not screaming, he jumps right back in the fray to jump on top of Martin, the thug that just seconds ago was beating his head into concrete and choking him to the point of ‘feeling like I was going to pass out’. Absolutely amazing that he could be on the verge of passing out yet still be so acutely aware of the situation to make such clear, precise judgements in the midst of a fight-to-the-death with a sudden assailant. To what judgement do you refer? It’s unclear in the above. If it’s “that guy is no longer atop me or hitting me”, I don’t think that requires much in the way of precision or clarity. And this sort of argument, that only a guilty man wouldn’t keep screaming…I mean, how can you possible know that? It’s not some logical axiom that after screaming while been being beaten and firing a loud, short-barreled pistol, screaming must continue to justify the reasonable fear for life or grievous bodily injury that prompted the shot. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > It’s quite curious that George gives zero mention of what he was doing with his hands & arms the entire time that Martin was supposedly choking him & beating his head into the ground. If he was blocking the blows, how was Martin choking him? If Martin was in fact grabbing his head and banging it into the ground, why isn’t George fighting back? He outweights Martin by a good 40 pounds or more. Martin has essentlially -no- offensive wounds, and George has zero defensive wounds. Hmmm… > > We’ve already gone over how it’s physically impossible for George to have pinned Martin’s arm with his right arm, then draw his gun out with his right hand, when it was tucked away behind & beneath him, all while using his right arm to keep pinning Martins’ arm. I went other some of this in a reply to **monstro** ; expecting Zimmerman to have perfect recall of the blow-by-blow and hand positioning is totally unreasonable. That’s simply not how the mind reacts to physical exertion under stress. Why don’t scraped knuckles count as offensive wounds? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > And there’s the complete lack of any explanation for what he was doing in the two minutes from the end of the NEN call to the actual fight - George desperately needs that two minute gap to disappear… Why? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Amazing how there are key inconsistencies at every single major point in the story, all that seem to paint George in a more flattering light… Do you have evidence, or just innuendo? How about a thorough presentation of an alternate theory that accounts for all the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9972 "2013-04-29T17:24:35Z")
> [@Human Action](#): > > So, what risk-free action should Zimmerman have taken, again? You mean, besides staying in his truck? > [@](#): > > Any evidence that Zimmerman tried to restrain Martin? Nope. Any evidence that conclusively proves Martin jumped Zimmerman completely unproked? > [@Human Action](#): > > I find it interesting that both you and **you with the face** view firing _fewer_ shots as evidence of murder. > > Remember the context in which the gun was fired: Martin atop Zimmerman. Shot fired, Martin no longer atop Zimmerman. Lethal threat gone. Not continuing to shoot after regaining his footing is, again, evidence that the shot was fired to stop a threat. It’s consistent with self-defense. Who said anything about ‘continuing to fire after regaining his footing’? I’m saying that in a midst of a savage beating and being truly scared for your life, emptying the clip seems more likely that only firing off one shot (that just happens to be a bulls-eye). > [@Human Action](#): > > To what judgement do you refer? It’s unclear in the above. If it’s “that guy is no longer atop me or hitting me”, I don’t think that requires much in the way of precision or clarity. Ah, but remember, according to George himself, Martin was still on top of him after the shot, and George didn’t think his shot had hit Martin. Why isn’t he still in fear of his life from the guy that seconds ago was whalin’ away on him and had trying to grab his gun? > [@Human Action](#): > > I went other some of this in a reply to **monstro** ; expecting Zimmerman to have perfect recall of the blow-by-blow and hand positioning is totally unreasonable. That’s simply not how the mind reacts to physical exertion under stress. Who said anything about a perfect blow-by-blow recall? George has said NOTHING about what he was doing with his hands/arms during the whole ordeal, and it’s physically impossible for him to have drawn and fired his gun as he described in the walk-through. As for scraped knuckles - why couldn’t they count as defensive wounds? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9973 "2013-04-29T17:35:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I find it interesting that both you and **you with the face** view firing _fewer_ shots as evidence of murder. I actually don’t think the number of shots tells us much in either direction. You’re the one who has introduced this into the discussion, and all I’ve done is challenged the idea that a single-shot supports the idea that GZ acted in self-defense. > [@](#): > > To what judgement do you refer? It’s unclear in the above. If it’s “that guy is no longer atop me or hitting me”, I don’t think that requires much in the way of precision or clarity. Once Martin stopped being a threat to Zimmerman, the defendant had no valid grounds to continue to lay hands on the kid. His posture at the end of the fight reveals what his likely posture was throughout the fight: His aim from the start was to hold Martin until the cops came. In other words, he was not in fear of Martin, nor was he in fear of losing his life to Martin. Going by what Zimmerman did after he shot Martin, we have no reason to assume he ever allowed Trayvon the freedom to walk away from him. And it is George’s own words that damn him on this issue. The instant he admitted to climbing on top of the kid after Martin “gave up”, he confessed to assaulting Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9974 "2013-04-29T17:48:38Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > His posture at the end of the fight reveals what his likely posture was throughout the fight: His aim from the start was to hold Martin until the cops came. I don’t suppose it will help to point out, yet again, that this is not true. There is an eyewitness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > In other words, he was not in fear of Martin, nor was he in fear of losing his life to Martin. Actually, in other words, once the attack ended, and Zimmerman rolled Martin off him, Zimmerman was no longer in fear of the person who broke his nose, blackened his eyes, knocked him down, and bashed his head on the ground. Your notion that how Zimmerman behaved after the threat was removed is proof that no threat existed is, of course, silly, and contradicts the known evidence. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9975 "2013-04-29T17:51:39Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > it’s physically impossible for him to have drawn and fired his gun as he described in the walk-through. No, it isn’t. It’s perfectly possible. > [@](#): > > As for scraped knuckles - why couldn’t they count as defensive wounds? Because punching someone in the face is offensive, not defensive. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9976 "2013-04-29T17:53:52Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > You mean, besides staying in his truck? Yes. We’re talking about the moment in which Martin and Zimmerman encounter each other. Both are on foot. What should Zimmerman have done then? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Nope. Any evidence that conclusively proves Martin jumped Zimmerman completely unproked? The lack of any injuries to Martin suggests than any provocation was not physical. If Martin took exception to something Zimmerman said, that doesn’t entitle him to attack. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Who said anything about ‘continuing to fire after regaining his footing’? I’m saying that in a midst of a savage beating and being truly scared for your life, emptying the clip seems more likely that only firing off one shot (that just happens to be a bulls-eye). See below, but what’s with the “just happens to be a bulls-eye”? Is that more innuendo, or an accusation of some kind? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Ah, but remember, according to George himself, Martin was still on top of him after the shot, and George didn’t think his shot had hit Martin. Why isn’t he still in fear of his life from the guy that seconds ago was whalin’ away on him and had trying to grab his gun? I just watched the reenactment again. Zimmerman says: “After I shot him, he like sat up…I shot him and I didn’t think I hit him because he sat up and he said ‘you got me’ or ‘you got it’ ‘you got me you got it’ something like that. So I though he was just saying ‘I know you have a gun now, I heard it I’m giving up’. So I don’t know if I pushed him off me or he fell off me, either way I got on top of him and I pushed his arms apart…I got on his back and I moved his arms part.” Sounds like he’s no longer in fear of his life because he’s no longer being struck, and Martin is no longer on top of him. > [@DagonAsh](#): > > Who said anything about a perfect blow-by-blow recall? George has said NOTHING about what he was doing with his hands/arms during the whole ordeal, and it’s physically impossible for him to have drawn and fired his gun as he described in the walk-through. Perhaps he doesn’t remember. See previous post on this subject. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > As for scraped knuckles - why couldn’t they count as defensive wounds? How do you get bruised, bleeding knuckles defensively? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9977 "2013-04-29T17:58:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I Actually, in other words, once the attack ended, and Zimmerman rolled Martin off him, Zimmerman was no longer in fear of the person who broke his nose, blackened his eyes, knocked him down, and bashed his head on the ground. And you type this with no hint of irony at all, clearly not recognizing how ridiculous this is on its face. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9978 "2013-04-29T18:02:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I actually don’t think the number of shots tells us much in either direction. You’re the one who has introduced this into the discussion, and all I’ve done is challenged the idea that a single-shot supports the idea that GZ acted in self-defense. It does support that idea, yes. If you want someone dead, you act differently than if you want them to stop attacking you. Example: shooting to stop, versus shooting to kill. > [@you with the face](#): > > Once Martin stopped being a threat to Zimmerman, the defendant had no valid grounds to continue to lay hands on the kid. How’s that? Pretty sure it’s not against the law to pin someone who was beating you. Deadly force would no longer be justified, but just plain force would be. > [@you with the face](#): > > His posture at the end of the fight reveals what his likely posture was throughout the fight: His aim from the start was to hold Martin until the cops came. In other words, he was not in fear of Martin, nor was he in fear of losing his life to Martin. So, his actions after beating beaten are a clue to how he would have acted had he not been? I don’t understand your meaning here, with the ‘posture’ and all. > [@you with the face](#): > > Going by what Zimmerman did after he shot Martin, we have no reason to assume he ever allowed Trayvon the freedom to walk away from him. And it is George’s own words that damn him on this issue. Walk away when? Post-beating? Please clarify. > [@you with the face](#): > > The instant he admitted to climbing on top of the kid after Martin “gave up”, he confessed to assaulting Martin. I’m going to need a cite on that. I had to learn Kentucky’s self-defense laws to get my CCW permit, and unless Florida is wildly different, Zimmerman climbing atop Martin at the tail end of a beating is not assault. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9979 "2013-04-29T18:14:11Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > The instant he admitted to climbing on top of the kid after Martin “gave up”, he confessed to assaulting Martin. > [@Human Action](#): > > I’m going to need a cite on that. I had to learn Kentucky’s self-defense laws to get my CCW permit, and unless Florida is wildly different, Zimmerman climbing atop Martin at the tail end of a beating is not assault. I’m impatient, so: [National Review: Citizen’s Arrest in Florida](http://www.nationalreview.com/content/citizen%E2%80%99s-arrests-florida), which coincidentally involves Zimmerman. > [@](#): > > Most states have statutes regarding citizen’s arrests, but in Florida such arrests are governed by the common law. Unfortunately, there isn’t a whole lot of case law pertaining to private citizens who arrest each other — almost always, in Florida, the citizen’s-arrest rules come up in cases of police officers who make arrests outside their jurisdiction. > > Language similar to this often appears in these cases: > > **A private citizen does have the common law right to arrest a person who commits a felony in his presence, or to arrest a person where a felony has been committed, and where the arresting citizen has probable cause to believe, and does believe, the person arrested to be guilty.** Even though there was time to obtain a warrant, a private citizen may make such an arrest and justify his failure to obtain a warrant by proving the person arrested was actually guilty of a felony. Bolding mine. So, even setting aside the self-defense issues, Zimmerman could hold Martin because Martin had committed a felony in his presence. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9980 "2013-04-29T18:19:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And you type this with no hint of irony at all, clearly not recognizing how ridiculous this is on its face. No, I don’t see how it is at all ridiculous to no longer be afraid of someone who is no longer attacking you. I notice you are no longer even trying to defend your statements. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9981 "2013-04-29T18:34:29Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > As an adult, have you ever been engaged in mortal combat with a teenager after you asked them a question? Do you know anyone else in your life personally? I suspect you don’t know anyone because most sane adults have the ability to effectively communicate with minors without inciting violence. Yes Honesty, I just got done telling you I was attacked by young person. I shut it down because the punch didn’t land. It could of. I personally know of one person who was knocked out cold from a single punch. I know of another adult who was attacked by a group of kids just for the fun of it. He was riding his bike on a bike path. Communication had nothing to do with any of the attacks. They were all made by people who couldn’t control their emotions. > [@Honesty](#): > > Since there’s no evidence that Trayvon received any martial arts training, formal or otherwise coupled with the age and weight differential, I’m just not buying that he got his ass beat that badly by a teenager. I’m also not getting anything from Trayvon to suggest someone who is angry and/or violent. It doesn’t take martial arts training to sucker punch someone and Martin was more than capable of hurting an adult even without it being his hobby. > [@Honesty](#): > > You have to put yourself in Zimmerman’s shoes, **Magiver**. If you just shot a guy and you were positive that there were no eye-witnesses, why wouldn’t you say the guy attacked you while you weren’t looking, that you heroically defended yourself, that you had no choice but to end his life, and he clutched his chest and uttered “you got me” before falling deathly still. Not only does Zimmerman not know there were no eye-witnesses he has every reason to believe he WAS seen. He’s in the backyard of rows of houses with no fences and in the video he specifically says he talks to someone who came to their door and asks them for help. That happened immediately before the struggle for the gun. > [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t got to be a lawyer to figure out that when a defendant is a sole witness to a crime, he has every incentive to muddy to waters, to distort what occurred, to displace culpability and put the blame on the victim. His dry, unemotional replay of the events to the Sanford Police Department is indicative of doing just that. > > - Honesty He put the blame squarely on the person who attacked him. The person with no signs he was attacked in any way. The person whose conversation (as relayed by his own girlfriend) showed no signs of verbal threat by Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/9982 "2013-04-29T18:59:53Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Well, that’s good news for Martin. The gaping hole in his chest is far worse than any bumps ‘n’ scrapes George got. That’s what guns are suppose to do when used in self defense. There’s nothing remotely trivial about getting your head smashed into cement. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > I find it quite interesting that George fired exactly one shot - a direct hit, mind you, a perfect bulls-eye. If it was me, and I was terrified for my very life, and I had a gun, you can bet your bottom dollar I’m emptying the clip. A direct hit? What does that mean? How can you miss hitting the center mass of a person 6 inches away? > [@DragonAsh](#): > > Even more amazing is that George fires exactly one shot, claiming to be scared for his life, yet stops screaming the -instant - he pulls the trigger. He then claims that he didn’t even think his shot had hit Martin - so the threat to his life is still there, right in front of him! Yet not only is he not screaming, he jumps right back in the fray to jump on top of Martin. Seems pretty consistent to me if you’re not sure you disabled your attacker. He wasn’t trying to kill him or he would have unloaded the clip into Martin’s head at the first opportunity. But he didn’t. It’s pretty safe to assume Martin stopped the attack after the gun went off. All Zimmerman needed to do at that point was to ensure Martin was disabled and that’s what he did. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > And there’s the complete lack of any explanation for what he was doing in the two minutes from the end of the NEN call to the actual fight - George desperately needs that two minute gap to disappear… Seems pretty obvious that he’s waiting for the police to arrive while looking around for the suspicious person for which the call was made. The sidewalk he was standing on gave him a view of the street so he could see the police pull up and it also gave him a commanding view of the area Martin ran into. Did you expect him to look down on the sidewalk while walking back toward his truck?. The time that needs to be accounted for, and the whereabouts is Martin’s. Per his own account to DD he was at his house. There is one and only one logical reason for him to go back to Zimmerman and that’s to start a confrontation. And as we know from DD Martin is the one who confronts Zimmerman. If Martin used the sidewalk then Zimmerman would have seen him from a distance. He does not. Amazing how there are key inconsistencies at every single major point in the story, all that seem to paint George in a more flattering light… [/QUOTE] There are no inconsistencies at all. You have yet to post one. Nothing in any of the evidence conflicts with his account of what happened. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=498) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=500)