# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 501
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10003 "2013-04-30T02:18:49Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’ll see what I can find over the next couple days. To be crystal clear, you allege that Zimmerman jumping on Martin is proof that he was never in legitimate fear for his life? It’s compelling evidence that he did not reasonably believe that Martin ever posed an imminent threat to his life, yes. Again, you’re having problems with internal consistency, and it’s hard to take what you post seriously. You can’t claim in one breath that things were moving too fast for him to think straight, “OMG, how was he supposed to know the fight had really ended?” and then in the next breath, claim that Zimmerman recognized that Martin no longer was a dangerous threat and thus was safe to restrain. Pick one of these ideas and stick with it, please. Your arguments are scattered. > [@](#): > > This leaves me confused. If your point is that Zimmerman also should have been charged with battery… That ain’t my point. My point is that Zimmerman decided to unlawfully restrain Martin the exact instant he had a clear opportunity to deescalate the conflict by either withdrawing force or running away. Thus, this tells us that Zimmerman’s primary interest was NOT defending himself, but rather it was to win the fight by subduing the kid by any means necessary. This is incompatible with self-defense. I could care less what he should actually be charged with, but by his own admission, he committed battery. Citizen’s arrest has nothing to do with this, just like it has nothing to do with Jim Bob Brown at the local dive tackling the guy looking sideways at his girl. > [@](#): > > Someone who’d just acted in self-defense might well do this too, though. It’s just good sense. Zimmerman mentions in the walkthrough that he thought Martin was hitting him **with** something, for instance. And what better way to ensure you get hit again by this mysterious invisible object than by getting right on top of your “assailant” and messing with him some more. This is about as sensible as prodding the lion who just mawled your face with a stick, but okay bro. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10004 "2013-04-30T02:59:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s compelling evidence that he did not reasonably believe that Martin ever posed an imminent threat to his life, yes. And that makes no sense to me. > [@you with the face](#): > > Again, you’re having problems with internal consistency, and it’s hard to take what you post seriously. You can’t claim in one breath that things were moving too fast for him to think straight, “OMG, how was he supposed to know the fight had really ended?” and then in the next breath, claim that Zimmerman recognized that Martin no longer was a dangerous threat and thus was safe to restrain. Pick one of these ideas and stick with it, please. Your arguments are scattered. “Safe to restrain” ?. You restrain people _because_ they are a threat, not because they _aren’t_ one. The idea that the safe play with an attacker is to stand there, as opposed to making sure they can’t attack again, also makes no sense. Do you think policemen refrain from restraining people who’ve fought with them? There’s no consistency problem. You don’t need to be thinking straight to be aware that the person who was atop you, beating you, is no longer atop you or beating you. However, it _does_ take some observation and awareness to conclude that the person is no longer any sort of threat, because that’s a much more complex calculation and requires observation, which is impaired by darkness. > [@you with the face](#): > > That ain’t my point. My point is that Zimmerman decided to unlawfully restrain Martin the exact instant he had a clear opportunity to deescalate the conflict by either withdrawing force or running away. Thus, this tells us that Zimmerman’s primary interest was NOT defending himself, but rather it was to win the fight by subduing the kid by any means necessary. This is incompatible with self-defense. If “win the fight” means “not get pummeled any more”, than sure. You act like those two goals are wildly different, when they aren’t. > [@you with the face](#): > > I could care less what he should actually be charged with, but by his own admission, he committed battery. Citizen’s arrest has nothing to do with this, just like it has nothing to do with Jim Bob Brown at the local dive tackling the guy looking sideways at his girl. Then the legality doesn’t matter. > [@you with the face](#): > > And what better way to ensure you get hit again by this mysterious invisible object than by getting right on top of your “assailant” and messing with him some more. This is about as sensible as prodding the lion who just mawled your face with a stick, but okay bro. A better way to ensure you get hit again is to stand there doing nothing until the attacker gets up, or to turn and run so the attacker can attack you again. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10005 "2013-04-30T03:01:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This point was discussed before, possibly before you joined the board (this thread’s been going a long time, and there was another one prior to it). What happened _after_ the shot was fired has no bearing on Zimmerman’s state of mind when it was fired,which is what matters in determining whether it was legal. Either he was in fear of death or great bodily harm, and said fear was reasonable, and he is not guilty, or the prosecution can prove beyond reasonable doubt that he wasn’t, and he’s guilty. > > As you correctly say, the only issue with Zimmerman restraining Martin after the shot is whether it’s a battery, unless one wants to claim that said restraint contributed to his death. Which would not be the most ridiculous claim made here… I confess to not reading all 200 pages. I agree that all that matters is Zimmerman’s state of mind when the shot is fired, but **you with the face** believes that his actions after the shot are evidence of his state of mind, so here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10006 "2013-04-30T03:43:59Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > According to Zimmerman, he grabbed him by his wrists and held them outstretched. Witnesses said they saw him pressing down on his back as well. And you think this was inappropriate why given the circumstances? Was Zimmerman supposed to shake his hand and say thanks? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10007 "2013-04-30T03:46:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I confess to not reading all 200 pages. > > I agree that all that matters is Zimmerman’s state of mind when the shot is fired, but **you with the face** believes that his actions after the shot are evidence of his state of mind, so here we are. Zimmerman thought Martin had something in his hand when he was striking him. We know Martin was carrying a can of ice tea and may very have used this during the assault. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10008 "2013-04-30T10:40:33Z")
because we heard the keys in warning on the audio tape and GZ says of his truck, the keys are in it and the 2 minutes or so of “unaccounted” for time and GZ’s keys were found somewhere other than his truck I think that after getting off the line with NEN GZ went back to his vehicle to get at least his keys and then returned to the area where he lost sight of TM I think that as a finder of fact, I would be allowed these conclusions whether you agree with them or not. But, perhaps I am wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10009 "2013-04-30T11:14:47Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Zimmerman thought Martin had something in his hand when he was striking him. We know Martin was carrying a can of ice tea and may very have used this during the assault. Possibly so. I just can’t get past this idea that restraining someone indicates that they are not a threat to you, whereas standing nearby indicates that they are a threat. I think that’d be news to every police department in this country, for one. This is coupled with the equally-shaky notion that Martin was inherently physically dominant in any possible confrontation with Zimmerman, as opposed to Martin landing the first blow and seizing the initiative. And so, **you with the face** ’s state of mind evidence seems contrary to logic. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10010 "2013-04-30T11:43:54Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > because we heard the keys in warning on the audio tape and > GZ says of his truck, the keys are in it and > the 2 minutes or so of “unaccounted” for time and > GZ’s keys were found somewhere other than his truck > > I think that > after getting off the line with NEN > GZ went back to his vehicle to get at least his keys and > then returned to the area where he lost sight of TM > > I think that as a finder of fact, I would be allowed these conclusions > whether you agree with them or not. > > But, perhaps I am wrong. when did he say say his keys are in the truck? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10011 "2013-04-30T12:18:34Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Possibly so. > > I just can’t get past this idea that restraining someone indicates that they are not a threat to you, whereas standing nearby indicates that they are a threat. I think that’d be news to every police department in this country, for one. The only one who has created this false dichotomy is you. Zimmerman’s options were not limited to either jumping on top of Martin or standing there with his mouth agape. He could have also retreated from Martin, obviously. When someone poses a threat to you and has already proven themselves to be much stronger, it is antithetical to common sense that you would throw yourself on top of them and attempt to restrain them. Not when you have the ability to run away. Sorry if this concept causes you to scratch your head, but it’s not that hard to understand. The lion analogy should have cleared this up for you. Fear of imminent death is an absolute thing. Whether it be a lion who has just mawled your face, or the teenaged boy who supposedly just bashed your head into concrete, if you’re in fear for your life, your behavior should demonstrate that. Zimmerman’s behavior did not. None of it. **Human Action** , if you find it hard to imagine yourself hopping on top of a lion to restrain it after it nearly killed you, why do you accept without question Zimmerman doing this to Martin following an act of self defense? If we are to take the guy at his word, Martin came at him with the force and ferocity of a rabid beast. If he was confident in his own ability to restrain the kid bare-handed (he put his gun away, remember), and he didn’t even know the kid had been hit (again, this is what he told us), then this is an admission that he didn’t believe Martin was a real threat to him. Of course, his actions post-shooting tell us what his state of mind was during the fight. Why wouldn’t it be? As with any possible crime, the behavior of the defendant after the incident can provide clues into his guilt or innocence. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10012 "2013-04-30T13:08:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The only one who has created this false dichotomy is you. Zimmerman’s options were not limited to either jumping on top of Martin or standing there with his mouth agape. I asked, “So him standing there indicates fear, but him jumping on his attacker does not?” You answered, “Uh, yes.” So, once again, would Zimmerman just standing near Martin be evidence that he really was afraid for his life, or not? > [@you with the face](#): > > He could have also retreated from Martin, obviously. On bad joints, with a head wound, turning his back on a younger, faster man. That’s not a good idea. You’ve got Zimmerman in a no-win scenario, here. If he did just stand there, you’d likely say that **that** was proof that he had no fear of Martin. If he ran, you’d likely say that it was proof that by being willing to turn his back, he was in no real danger, or that Zimmerman was fleeing a crime scene to avoid being identified. If he shot Martin more times, you’d likely say that it was proof of executing a wounded, non-threatening Martin. > [@you with the face](#): > > When someone poses a threat to you and has already proven themselves to be much stronger, it is antithetical to common sense that you would throw yourself on top of them and attempt to restrain them. Not when you have the ability to run away. Sorry if this concept causes you to scratch your head, but it’s not that hard to understand. The lion analogy should have cleared this up for you. Martin wasn’t “much stronger”, he got the first punch in and got on top of Zimmerman in the ground-and-pound position. The lion analogy is bunk. You seem to be trying to backdoor-in a duty to retreat, in effect. > [@you with the face](#): > > Fear of imminent death is an absolute thing. Whether it be a lion who has just mawled your face, or the teenaged boy who supposedly just bashed your head into concrete, if you’re in fear for your life, your behavior should demonstrate that. Zimmerman’s behavior did not. None of it. > > **Human Action** , if you find it hard to imagine yourself hopping on top of a lion to restrain it after it nearly killed you, why do you accept without question Zimmerman doing this to Martin following an act of self defense? If we are to take the guy at his word, Martin came at him with the force and ferocity of a rabid beast. If he was confident in his own ability to restrain the kid bare-handed (he put his gun away, remember), and he didn’t even know the kid had been hit (again, this is what he told us), then this is an admission that he didn’t believe Martin was a real threat to him. The fear of imminent death occured when Martin was atop Zimmerman, beating his head. Once that was no longer occuring, the fear of imminent death was gone. Zimmerman wasn’t afraid for his life from Martin in some general way, he was afraid for his life in the very specific circumstances of having his head beaten against a sidewalk. Consider the implications of your logic. If Martin himself is the lethal threat, rather the the circumstance of having his head beaten against a sidewalk, then any action other than shooting Martin six or seven more times is evidence that Zimmerman didn’t _really_ think of Martin himself as a threat. > [@you with the face](#): > > Of course, his actions post-shooting tell us what his state of mind was during the fight. Why wouldn’t it be? As with any possible crime, the behavior of the defendant after the incident can provide clues into his guilt or innocence. You are, thus far, unable to demonstrate that jumping on Martin after the shooting is credible evidence that Zimmerman tried to jump on Martin before the shooting. This is because of the intervening event: a beating, which is, _on its own merits_, rationale to restrain an attacker. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10013 "2013-04-30T14:36:43Z")
[quote=“Human\_Action, post:10009, topic:619125”] Possibly so. I just can’t get past this idea that restraining someone indicates that they are not a threat to you, whereas standing nearby indicates that they are a threat. I think that’d be news to every police department in this country, for one. This is coupled with the equally-shaky notion that Martin was inherently physically dominant in any possible confrontation with Zimmerman, as opposed to Martin landing the first blow and seizing the initiative. Zimmerman had various small puncture wounds on his face. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10014 "2013-04-30T14:59:16Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Zimmerman had various small puncture wounds on his face. Do you have a source that discusses this particular aspect of the case? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10015 "2013-04-30T15:15:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Fear of imminent death is an absolute thing. Whether it be a lion who has just mawled your face, or the teenaged boy who supposedly just bashed your head into concrete, if you’re in fear for your life, your behavior should demonstrate that. Zimmerman’s behavior did not. None of it. What Zimmerman did made perfect when looking for a weapon. You’re not even grasping at straws on this. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10016 "2013-04-30T15:37:11Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Do you have a source that discusses this particular aspect of the case? > **[PHOTOS: New Images Of George Zimmerman Show Wounds](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/george-zimmerman-photos_n_1526045)** > > PHOTOS: New Images Of George Zimmerman Show Wounds ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10017 "2013-04-30T15:58:40Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > [George Zimmerman Images Show Wounds (PHOTOS) | HuffPost Voices](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/george-zimmerman-photos_n_1526045.html) Ok, thank you. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10018 "2013-04-30T16:01:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > You answered, “Uh, yes.” So, once again, would Zimmerman just standing near Martin be evidence that he really was afraid for his life, or not? It would give a lot more credence to his position, yes. If he was just standing there, then at least he’s not giving the appearance of prolonging the conflict or trying to “win” as opposed to live. Immobility is a common reaction when afraid. Haven’t you ever heard of being “paralyzed with fear”? > [@](#): > > On bad joints, with a head wound, turning his back on a younger, faster man. That’s not a good idea. Internal consistency is your friend, once again. If he was in too bad of shape to flee from Martin (and when I say “flee”, I don’t even mean run…he could have slithered away), then he was not in any kind of shape to wrestle him to the ground. Go back to the lion attack analogy. If a lion just gnawed at my body, there is no way in hell I’d feel up to the task of accosting this animal, even if I’d just shot it. I’d be crawling out of there as fast as I could. Why did Zimmerman put himself at risk of another beat down by holding down the kid? > [@](#): > > You’ve got Zimmerman in a no-win scenario, here. If he did just stand there, you’d likely say that **that** was proof that he had no fear of Martin. No I wouldn’t. Only you seem fixated on the idea of him just standing there. I think the more reasonable and instinctual course of action would have been for him to retreat. > [@](#): > > Consider the implications of your logic. If Martin himself is the lethal threat, rather the the circumstance of having his head beaten against a sidewalk… This is like saying a lion isn’t a lethal threat, but rather the circumstance of having your face crunched in between the lion’s jaws. If a lion suddenly stops biting your legs, you’re still going to be afraid of it. Your fear doesn’t just suddenly dry up because now the lion is 3 feet away licking itself. Your first and only instinct will be to get away from there. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10019 "2013-04-30T16:13:43Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Internal consistency is your friend, once again. If he was in too bad of shape to flee from Martin (and when I say “flee”, I don’t even mean run…he could have slithered away), then he was not in any kind of shape to wrestle him to the ground. [ul] [li]How was Zimmerman supposed to run (or “slither”) away when Martin was sitting on his chest?[/li][/ul][ul][li]There is no evidence that Zimmerman wrestled Martin to the ground. All the evidence known to date is that Martin wrestled Zimmerman to the ground.[/ul][/li] > [@](#): > > Go back to the lion attack analogy. No thanks, it’s too stupid. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10020 "2013-04-30T16:22:01Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It would give a lot more credence to his position, yes. If he was just standing there, then at least he’s not giving the appearance of prolonging the conflict or trying to “win” as opposed to live. Immobility is a common reaction when afraid. Haven’t you ever heard of being “paralyzed with fear”? Again, ‘trying to win’ and ‘trying to not be beaten anymore’ look exactly the same. > [@you with the face](#): > > Internal consistency is your friend, once again. If he was in too bad of shape to flee from Martin (and when I say “flee”, I don’t even mean run…he could have slithered away), then he was not in any kind of shape to wrestle him to the ground. It was Zimmerman’s call to make; neither of us know exactly what sort of mental and physical condition he was in at the moment he had to decide to jump on Martin, flee, slither, what have you. Just being heavier, and able to bear down on someone, isn’t something that erodes from injury. Being able to run does. Martin was already on the ground. > [@you with the face](#): > > Go back to lion attack analogy. If a lion just just gnawed at my body, there is no way in hell I’d feel up to the task of accosting this animal, even if I’d just shot it. I’d be crawling out of there as fast as I could. Why did Zimmerman put himself at risk of another beat down by holding down the kid? Because there’s a higher risk of another beat down if you _don’t_ hold him down? If you’re unaware that he’s been shot, there’s every chance that he will get back up. Again, no referee comes in and ends the fight. > [@you with the face](#): > > No I wouldn’t. Only you seem fixated on the idea of him just standing there. I think the more reasonable and instinctual course of action would have been for him to retreat. The next time you are attacked, feel free to run, slither, or anything you wish. Deciding that _your_, long after the fact, suppositions about _your_ instincts must match Zimmerman’s is entirely unreasonable. There’s no handbook that must be followed to the letter to use self-defense, as long as the actions are reasonable. If you think fleeing would have been a smarter choice, that’s fine. But it was not the only reasonable choice available. And consider the implications of this. There is no duty to retreat before using lethal force in self-defense, if there’s a reasonable fear for your life. But, you’re claiming that a failure to retreat is evidence that there was not a reasonable fear. This is incompatible with no duty to retreat. > [@you with the face](#): > > This is like saying a lion isn’t a lethal threat, but rather the circumstance of having your face crunched in between the lion’s jaws. If a lion suddenly stops biting your legs, you’re still going to be afraid of it. Your fear doesn’t just suddenly dry up because now the lion is 3 feet away licking itself. Your first and only instinct will be to get away from there. Martin was lacking a 550-pound body weight, claws, and fangs. There is no intelligent comparison to be made between a 17-year-old human and a jungle cat. I see why you want to hammer on this analogy, but it’s pretty senseless. That said, though, you’re right: the immediate, lethal threat is being crunched in between the lion’s jaws. The lion just being nearby is a different level of threat. If the threat was purely Martin himself, and not the circumstances Zimmerman found himself in, then would Zimmerman be legally justified if he’d pushed Martin off of him, shakily regained his footing, took a few deep breaths, crossed himself, and then fired six more shots into Martin as he lay on the ground? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10021 "2013-04-30T16:25:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [ul] > [li]How was Zimmerman supposed to run (or “slither”) away when Martin was sitting on his chest?[/li][/ul][ul][li]There is no evidence that Zimmerman wrestled Martin to the ground. All the evidence known to date is that Martin wrestled Zimmerman to the ground.[/ul][/li] **you with the face** means immediately after the shot was fired, after Martin either fell or was pushed off of Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10022 "2013-04-30T16:33:43Z")
Correct - which she considers to be an assault, and evidence that Zimmerman had no fear of Martin. Which is silly, because even if Zimmerman wanted to slither away, he would still have to get Martin off him. Plus the misstatement of fact where she alleged that Zimmerman wrestled Martin to the ground, for which there is no evidence. And the oddball notion that checking someone for weapons after they attack you and beat your head on the ground shows that you are not afraid of them. Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=500) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=502)