# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 508
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10143 "2013-05-10T22:48:24Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I noticed that HLN’s professional rumor-mongers Jane Velez-Mitchell and Nancy Grace are now gearing up to misrepresent the facts and playing to their fans emotions for the GZ trial starting June 10th. > > Looks like this circus is going into overdrive. Once you make the decisions to be one of those sorts of media outlets, why not go all the way? Use the facts as they are known to create several competing narratives each associated with a personality or group and turn the programs into something akin to [WWE](http://www.wwe.com/)? Stick to the facts so you are still technically “informative” if not exactly a “news” program in the expected sense. But use the days’ events to play up manufactured dramas and competitions. We could even do American Idol type TV shows about bloggers trying to become media personalities on the “informative” network. I think it’d be a big hit. It’s existence is inevitable. I wish I’d get a cut of it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10144 "2013-05-11T02:41:27Z")
> [@Saraya](#): > > The only thing to fail black males, is…black males. > Deal with it and spare us a thread. Geez, can you put aside your noose, bucket of tar, pillow of feathers, and your threadbare copy of _Birth of a Nation_ for a moment? Let’s keep it real: The only thing blacks “fail” at is having penises that are smaller than yours. I’ve been cataloging your post, not because I like them, but it’s important to point out the dark vein of intolerance on this board (and it ain’t against conservatives as the GD threads suggest :rolleyes:). Now, if you’d like to have a thread where we can throw racist insults at each other (I’m sure you have it bottled it up living on the mean, hard-scrabble streets of whatever quaint town/suburban/rural area you’re from), please start it. As for the rest of the peanut gallery, I started to quote a bunch of papers from PubMed about facial recognition, deceit, and fMRI, but what’s the point? Most of you have the science education of eighth graders or would compare it to “psychics” like Sylvia Browne, when, in reality, deception has a neurobiological correlate that manifest itself physically as involuntary microexpressions. These studies were highlighted in the book I posted above, reflexive booing notwithstanding. Finally, if you haven’t read the writing on the wall, Zimmerman is going to jail. So yeah, you kind of wasted money purchasing those pom-poms and energy by waving them so vigorously. Drink up and stay thirsty, my friend. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10145 "2013-05-11T02:50:41Z")
[quote=“Shodan, post:10138, topic:619125”] Actually Martin’s “criminal record” is pretty much the same as Zimmerman’s at the time of the shooting - neither has any convictions on his record. So technically speaking, you are (obviously) completely wrong. Unless you care to stipulate that Martin had a “criminal record” because he was a petty drug dealer, thief, and vandal. /QUOTE] 1. Where’s Trayvon’s mugshot? 2. Where’s the police report detailing Trayvon’s supposed behavior 3. Where’s an evidence he is a thief. What did he steal. 4. What’s the evidence he’s a vandal. What did he vandalized. Notwithstanding these questions, Zimmerman is more culpable, biologically and legally, for his actions than Trayvon. This ought to be self-evident, but given the science education on the SDMB, it’s clearly not. Pearls before swine. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10146 "2013-05-11T03:01:10Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > As for the rest of the peanut gallery, I started to quote a bunch of papers from PubMed about facial recognition, deceit, and fMRI, but what’s the point? Most of you have the science education of eighth graders or would compare it to “psychics” like Sylvia Browne, when, in reality, deception has a neurobiological correlate that manifest itself physically as involuntary microexpressions. These studies were highlighted in the book I posted above, reflexive booing notwithstanding. Paul Ekman’s pseudoscience, _that’s_ what you were leaning on? By all means, make your case. I don’t recall Ekman linking his “truth wizards” to economic background, so make sure you source that claim. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10147 "2013-05-11T04:46:27Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Geez, can you put aside your noose, bucket of tar, pillow of feathers, and your threadbare copy of _Birth of a Nation_ for a moment? Let’s keep it real: The only thing blacks “fail” at is having penises that are smaller than yours. I’ve been cataloging your post, not because I like them, but it’s important to point out the dark vein of intolerance on this board (and it ain’t against conservatives as the GD threads suggest :rolleyes:). Now, if you’d like to have a thread where we can throw racist insults at each other (I’m sure you have it bottled it up living on the mean, hard-scrabble streets of whatever quaint town/suburban/rural area you’re from), please start it. All Saraya did was disagree with your assertion that society was to blame for the failures of black people. There’s no bucket of tar involved in suggesting that people are responsible for their actions. There’s no racial insult involved which is not the case with your remarks about penises. Seriously, WTF? How did you manage to go from psychic powers to penises? There is no real retort to your posts other than to point out how crazy they are in the hopes you eventually see it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10148 "2013-05-11T05:47:16Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Finally, if you haven’t read the writing on the wall, Zimmerman is going to jail. Would you like to make a little bet? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10149 "2013-05-11T06:49:19Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > 1. Where’s Trayvon’s mugshot? > 2. Where’s the police report detailing Trayvon’s supposed behavior > 3. Where’s an evidence he is a thief. What did he steal. > 4. What’s the evidence he’s a vandal. What did he vandalized. > Notwithstanding these questions, Zimmerman is more culpable, biologically and legally, for his actions than Trayvon. This ought to be self-evident, but given the science education on the SDMB, it’s clearly not. > > Pearls before swine. > > - Honesty To answer questions 3 and 4, he was suspended from his school for stealing jewellery and vandalising lockers. There is also apparently a criminal record that isn’t publicly available because of his age, but will be admitted at trial, so the full question will be answered then. As for Martin being responsible for his actions, _my_ education and experience has taught me that teenagers, and especially teenage men, are pretty likely to make foolish and even dangerous choices, but that they are still _choices_, and that they are legally and morally responsible for them. I’ve no idea what it means to be “biologically culpable” for something… Your argument appears to be that Zimmerman was probably the aggressor here, but even if he wasn’t, he should be punished anyway, because Martin was too young to be held responsible if he did, in fact, brutally beat Zimmerman. That’s a pretty stupid argument, to put it mildly, and demonstrates just how much you’re willing to twist facts, law and morality to get your guy off, and is even worse when we consider the only reason he’s “your guy” in the first place is pigmentation. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10150 "2013-05-11T09:04:09Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Paul Ekman’s pseudoscience, _that’s_ what you were leaning on? By all means, make your case. I don’t recall Ekman linking his “truth wizards” to economic background, so make sure you source that claim. I don’t know who Paul Ekman is. That’s your strawman which you’ve built up and heroically knocked over. Congratulations. I’m referring to studies on deceit and lie detection using fMRI. You can find studies on it [here](http://www.grezes.ens.fr/reprints/Grezes2004_deceit.pdf), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12853369), [here](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/24/5500.short), [here](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/10/9), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3563087/) and the list goes [on](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328123/) and [on](http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1007/s10979-006-9031-2) and [on](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hbm.20191/full). Will this convince you? Of course not! It has (increasingly) become part and parcel of SDMB tha no cite is good enough and becomes a game of goal posting. > [@Magiver](#): > > All Saraya did was disagree with your assertion that society was to blame for the failures of black people. There’s no bucket of tar involved in suggesting that people are responsible for their actions. There’s no racial insult involved which is not the case with your remarks about penises. Seriously, WTF? How did you manage to go from psychic powers to penises? > There is no real retort to your posts other than to point out how crazy they are in the hopes you eventually see it. Whatever, your insistence on harping my supposed racism proves that you’re naive. You’re blind to the racism that Saraya have displayed over and over again. Have you seen this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16269585#post16269585) > [@](#): > > Meanwhile Ramsay said “I knew something was wrong when a little, pretty white girl ran into a black man’s arms. Something is wrong here. Dead giveaway.” > **Black people - always saying stupid shit and screwing it up for other black people**. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16187325) > [@](#): > > You mean like how blacks are more prone to sexual aggression, identity politics and general violence? Hmm is that cultural AND genetic? > > _Que pictures of grandstanding Trayvon and expulsion records_ or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15853500) > [@](#): > > Do you also think white people stole blacks from Africa? or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=16078115) > [@](#): > > You’re lying and yet you don’t know it. > Then you justify it by hiding behind the fact that you’re mixed. You and millions of others think the same way. Mst comments in here shared this agreement that differences are what make the world go around, yet daily we’re trying to make everyone in the world exactly the same.Ironic. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=663784) > [@](#): > > Marcus Hopsin himself spit the truth “…why do black people gotta be the only ones who can’t evolve?, because you in the streets acting like neanderthals.” > > The only people that anyone should be mad at, are the ‘successful’ rap artists who manage a way out of the streets only to spend all their time glorifying the streets instead of actually giving something back by promoting a lifestyle absent the a-typical ghetto activities. But they don’t..they just keep doing the same useless nonsense - more hamsters stuck in the loop. > > I’m not interested in my tax dollars going to useless socialist programs so they can further sit on the corner and do nothing all day - who then further have the audacity to criticize their own for making something of themselves, as if being successful is a sign of selling out. Stop being naive and thin skinned. Either deal with these people head on, or let them rot away on their own. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15733257) > [@](#): > > 1. “Black” is not a race. Though they can’t seem to make up their minds on what black actually is. Negro should be the formal title, much like Caucasian is for ‘white’. > 2. There is no African-American. Primarily because most black people are American, and Africa is a world away. > 3. Black people chose/choose to say “Massa” either because they couldn’t talk properly, or it was intentional. > > In all races and all nations you will find modified words like “Massa.” Any joke then with similar subject content would be either racist or xenophobic. > > Equality at it’s finest - it’s either all racist or none at all. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15650272) > [@](#): > > Martin Luther King was a plagerist, adulterer, womanizer(physically as well), liar, NOT a reverend, communist sympathizer and a whole host of over things. > > Should we take his birthday celebration away, or do we still praise him cause his message was good? > > In a proper America, he’d be shunned for his false nature. Civil rights doesn’t need black ‘leaders.’ > And we could get our President’s birthdays back. > The money should never change, it give us a sense of continuity that is sorely lacking in the States. > To answer your question, who should be next, John Adams or Ron Paul. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=15671719) > [@](#): > > …As to the comment about Obama, you’re damn right he can get away with what he says because of his skin color. or this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15704961&postcount=7708) > [@](#): > > . . . America was taken back by the aggression of the ethnic communities in the early 90s; but we’re wise to the double standards now. Nah, of course not. You do not see because you specifically choose not to see, bless your heart. You take his posts at face value by blinding yourself to the past. I don’t so please accept that: I see his posts - as you clearly mine - as a steaming pile of racism wrapped in cheap gold foil. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10151 "2013-05-11T10:06:20Z")
Anyone fancy going through **Honesty** ’s posts to find all the racism, both veiled and open, there? I can’t be bothered to look at all of them, but here’s a blatant piece of racist pseudoscience, that’s about as factual as the claim that it’s scientifically proven that only poor people can tell if someone’s lying. > [@Honesty](#): > > I know, right? Here’s another from the racist extraordinaire: The rate of autism is extraordinarily low in minorities (blacks and hispanics) and, if you look at the brains of autistic white children, what do you see? You see an atrophy of neural regions that are involved in social reasoning and a rerouting of those neurons to other parts of the brain like verbal reasoning or object recognition. Do you know where you find the highest rate of new autistic cases? Silicon Valley. It would seem, as luck would have it, that mating two really smart white people yields, more likely than black or hispanic parents, a child that’s really smart and intelligent but with less social reasoning than their parents. Hitler would be proud. His prototypical uebermensch is nothing more than blond-haired, blue-eyed autistic that has the math acuity of Einstein and the verbal reasoning of Frost but the social maturity of an adolescent. > > - Honesty After posting that particular piece of crap, you have no moral high ground to accuse anyone of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10152 "2013-05-11T10:16:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t know who Paul Ekman is. That’s your strawman which you’ve built up and heroically knocked over. Congratulations. I’m referring to studies on deceit and lie detection using fMRI. You can find studies on it [here](http://www.grezes.ens.fr/reprints/Grezes2004_deceit.pdf), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12853369), [here](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/24/5500.short), [here](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/10/9), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3563087/) and the list goes [on](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328123/) and [on](http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1007/s10979-006-9031-2) and [on](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hbm.20191/full). Will this convince you? Of course not! It has (increasingly) become part and parcel of SDMB tha no cite is good enough and becomes a game of goal posting. Speaking of deception, who are you attempting to deceive with your implication that any of those cites support your claim that poor and/or underprivileged people are better at detecting lies than others? The only study among them that says _anything_ about who is more likely to detect lies says that those who often lie are better at it. Did you simply google “fMRI lying study” and post the results in the hope no-one would read them? They are not saying what you claim. You are, however, correct about one point. If your claim is demonstrably false, it is indeed the case that no cite will be good enough to show it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10153 "2013-05-11T14:58:57Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Whatever, your insistence on harping my supposed racism proves that you’re naive. You’re blind to the racism that Saraya have displayed over and over again. I addressed what you responded to in this thread, as it happened. What Saraya said wasn’t racist. Your response was. If you want to catalog everything Saraya ever said and pit him then knock yourself out. Given what you’ve said in this thread alone I don’t think you want people to catalog it. You have no cites regarding this special psychic ability that poor and/or black people have of seeing guilt. It’s complete nonsense. You can’t posit an argument against Zimmerman except you just know he’s guilty because of your bullshit meter and everybody else is wrong because they can’t see it. Fuck the evidence, “you just know”. Well bless your heart. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10154 "2013-05-11T17:12:50Z")
**Honesty** , if black people are so good at spotting bullshit, why did they re-elect Mike Nifong? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10155 "2013-05-11T17:55:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Speaking of deception, who are you attempting to deceive with your implication that any of those cites support your claim that poor and/or underprivileged people are better at detecting lies than others? The only study among them that says _anything_ about who is more likely to detect lies says that those who often lie are better at it. > > Did you simply google “fMRI lying study” and post the results in the hope no-one would read them? They are not saying what you claim. > > You are, however, correct about one point. If your claim is demonstrably false, it is indeed the case that no cite will be good enough to show it’s true. If you think I’m dancing for your approval, then you’re going to be disappointed. \ I provided a link to the book, provided a host of cites, and if that’s still not good enough, then it ain’t going to be good enough, but I’m not playing the same old, tired game of goal-posting that’s become part and parcel of this message board. > [@Steophan](#): > > Anyone fancy going through Honesty’s posts to find all the racism, both veiled and open, there? I can’t be bothered to look at all of them, but here’s a blatant piece of racist pseudoscience, that’s about as factual as the claim that it’s scientifically proven that only poor people can tell if someone’s lying. Steophan, have you missed the memo? I’m the only racist person here. The rest of you are surrounded in a nimbus of holy white light, bless your hearts. > [@Magiver](#): > > I addressed what you responded to in this thread, as it happened. What Saraya said wasn’t racist. Your response was. When someone says “black males only fail themselves, deal with it” it’s racist to me. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant. Now, I know you will refuse to grasp that and that’s 100% fine, but know that I don’t look at Saraya’s posts in a vacuum but rather as a growing collage of his previous body of “work” that, when you step away, looks remarkably like a hangman’s noose. > [@Steophan](#): > > After posting that particular piece of crap, you have no moral high ground to accuse anyone of racism.’ \ I call it like I see it. My point was to illustrate, once again, that Magiver has tunnel vision. As for whites and autism, well, damnit, it’s kind of true, There’s what’s been referred to as a “autism cluster” sitting right on top of Santa Clara County and it’s not correlated to exposure to environmental carcinogens or vaccines, it’s correlated with parental income which is a proxy for socioeconomic status. White and Asian children make up over 50% of the children in Santa Clara County. African-Americans in Santa Clara County? Only [2%](http://www.sccoe.org/depts/lpc/pdffiles/LPC2008_Assessment.pdf). What’s more, when the CDC conducted an autism study in Atlanta, they found autism clusters in the metropolitan area but very few in the city. If anyone is familiar with metro Atlanta, most of the whites live there. Lastly, blacks and latinos are less likely to be diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10156 "2013-05-11T18:01:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > **Honesty** , if black people are so good at spotting bullshit, why did they re-elect Mike Nifong? > > Regards, > Shodan I was going to ask you the same question about George W. Bush. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10157 "2013-05-11T18:06:17Z")
Could you answer the question, please? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10158 "2013-05-11T18:21:24Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > I don’t know who Paul Ekman is. That’s your strawman which you’ve built up and heroically knocked over. Congratulations. I’m referring to studies on deceit and lie detection using fMRI. You can find studies on it [here](http://www.grezes.ens.fr/reprints/Grezes2004_deceit.pdf), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12853369), [here](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/24/24/5500.short), [here](http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2202/10/9), [here](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3563087/) and the list goes [on](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3328123/) and [on](http://psycnet.apa.org/?&fa=main.doiLanding&doi=10.1007/s10979-006-9031-2) and [on](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/hbm.20191/full). Will this convince you? Of course not! It has (increasingly) become part and parcel of SDMB tha no cite is good enough and becomes a game of goal posting. Have you read _Blink_? The chapter on detecting deception is a profile of Paul Ekman, the pioneer of microexpressions. I don’t know how you could be familiar with microexpressions but not Paul Ekman. He’s correct that microexpressions exist, but incorrect that anyone can reliably interpret them to detect deception. As for your cites… The first studied the reaction of the brain, via fMRI, when the subject viewed videos, based on whether the subject thought they were being deceived or not. The second user fMRI to study the reaction in the brain when the subject was telling lies. The third is the same study as your first cite. The fourth has nothing to do with deception, it studied the ability to mentalize, and the role of gender in that. The fifth studied the reaction in the brain when the subject was telling lies. The sixth studied whether people who lie frequently are better at it. It direct contradicts your claim: > [@](#): > > Deception detection has been studied extensively, and the finding that typical individuals fare little better than chance in detecting deception is one of the more robust in the behavioral sciences. The seventh, which was co-authored by Paul Ekman, studied whether adults were better at detecting lies from children or from adults. The eighth studied using fMRIs to detect deception. No, those don’t convince me, because none of them have anything to do with your claim that a) it is possible to reliably detect deception via a videotaped statement, and b) this ability is stronger in the less advantaged. > [@Honesty](#): > > If you think I’m dancing for your approval, then you’re going to be disappointed. \ I provided a link to the book, provided a host of cites, and if that’s still not good enough, then it ain’t going to be good enough, but I’m not playing the same old, tired game of goal-posting that’s become part and parcel of this message board. As far as I know, Zimmerman hasn’t been placed in an fMRI and questioned about his account of the shooting. Thus, none of your cites have anything to do with your claim, or this case. No goal posts have been moved. You claimed that white people, on average, were worse at detecting deception than black people, on average. You’ve produced no evidence for this claim whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10159 "2013-05-11T18:50:05Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > If you think I’m dancing for your approval, then you’re going to be disappointed. \ I provided a link to the book, provided a host of cites, and if that’s still not good enough, then it ain’t going to be good enough, but I’m not playing the same old, tired game of goal-posting that’s become part and parcel of this message board. You posted links to things that were unrelated to the point you were trying to make. I called you out on it. I’m not the one in the wrong here. > [@](#): > > Steophan, have you missed the memo? I’m the only racist person here. The rest of you are surrounded in a nimbus of holy white light, bless your hearts. None of us are perfect, and I expect all of us have, at some points, some racist thoughts. Because we’re human, and all humans have them. The difference is, some people here are attempting to focus only on the evidence, and some on their prejudices and unsupported suppositions. > [@](#): > > When someone says “black males only fail themselves, deal with it” it’s racist to me. Whether you agree with that or not is irrelevant. Now, I know you will refuse to grasp that and that’s 100% fine, but know that I don’t look at Saraya’s posts in a vacuum but rather as a growing collage of his previous body of “work” that, when you step away, looks remarkably like a hangman’s noose. When someone says “white people can’t smell bullshit”, that’s racist to me. You don’t get a pass on your racism because someone else has also posted racist material. You are the one who seems obsessed with race and racism, despite the fact that there’s no actual reason to think it has anything to do with the case. You _also_ seem to think that, because someone has posted racist statements in the past, anything they post in the future is invalid. That’s also false, their statements should be judged on their own merits, not discounted because you dislike the person. > [@](#): > > \ I call it like I see it. My point was to illustrate, once again, that Magiver has tunnel vision. As for whites and autism, well, damnit, it’s kind of true, There’s what’s been referred to as a “autism cluster” sitting right on top of Santa Clara County and it’s not correlated to exposure to environmental carcinogens or vaccines, it’s correlated with parental income which is a proxy for socioeconomic status. White and Asian children make up over 50% of the children in Santa Clara County. African-Americans in Santa Clara County? Only [2%](http://www.sccoe.org/depts/lpc/pdffiles/LPC2008_Assessment.pdf). What’s more, when the CDC conducted an autism study in Atlanta, they found autism clusters in the metropolitan area but very few in the city. If anyone is familiar with metro Atlanta, most of the whites live there. Lastly, blacks and latinos are less likely to be diagnosed with autism spectrum disorders. > > - Honesty Blacks and Latinos in many parts of the US are less likely to be diagnosed with a vast range of mental issues, despite the fact that they suffer from them in similar amounts to other races - there is, of course, no significant difference in brain structure between races. The reasons are firstly economic, in that it usually costs a great deal of money to be treated for mental health issues in the US, and secondly the demonisation of people with these problems in the community - something you did upthread, when you claimed that evidence of Zimmerman’s mental problems was evidence of his guilt. Thirdly, there is a tendency to _over_diagnose certain issues in certain communities, again for economic reasons, when doing so can allow somewhat unethical medical providers to either sell drugs or therapy, or to keep a patient on board when they say they’ll go elsewhere if they don’t get the diagnosis they want. You see, unlike the “white man” that’s a figment of your twisted imagination, I _can_ smell bullshit, and I _do_ know what I’m talking about. You are posting stuff that you (should) know to be false, if you’re capable of understanding the cites you post, and the majority of the crap in this thread is coming from you. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10160 "2013-05-11T21:01:14Z")
This delusion that blacks somehow can “smell bullshit” better than whites… Just take a look at this: [http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/10/us/kendrick-johnson-death-irpt/index.html?hpt=hp\_t2](http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/10/us/kendrick-johnson-death-irpt/index.html?hpt=hp_t2) A black student suffocates in a rolled-up gym mat. The police find no evidence of foul play. No marks on the body, nothing that came out from interviews with more than 100 people, no evidence whatsoever. Nevertheless the family and the people that came out to protest are convinced that there was no “justice” - because of the photo of the dead student’s bloated face. What else they expect from someone dying from being suspended upside down for hours, I don’t know. **Honesty** is not alone in his delusions. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10161 "2013-05-11T21:01:33Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Have you read _Blink_? The chapter on detecting deception is a profile of Paul Ekman, the pioneer of microexpressions. > > No goal posts have been moved. You claimed that white people, on average, were worse at detecting deception than black people, on average. You’ve produced no evidence for this claim whatsoever. I don’t have a copy of the book on my nightstand, so the name escaped me, but I knew it was from the wrong. If you had so from the beginning, I wouldn’t have blown you off. I apologize, my bad. So now that we have that out the way, what’s fraudulent about Paul Ekman? I’m looking at his vita, and it’s quite impressive - University of Chicago, New York University, Adelphi University, and a host of NIH grants and over 100 publications on Pubmed. So what’s pseudoscience about Paul Ekman. In comparison, could you also offer your own credentials in this field as well. Thanks. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2013, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10162 "2013-05-11T21:36:51Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > When someone says “white people can’t smell bullshit”, that’s racist to me. You don’t get a pass on your racism because someone else has also posted racist material. You are the one who seems obsessed with race and racism, despite the fact that there’s no actual reason to think it has anything to do with the case. It’s a quite a shame you think that way because I don’t consider it racist at all, I consider it an honest appraisal of my experience with no malice or ill-will intended. I supposed this a snake devouring its tail moment where it clear that we will never understand each other on this issue. There are times where I’ve pretended to be racist, one example was in the Chris Dorner thread or the thread about white child molesters. That was fun, but I think it was evident from the context of my posts, that I wasn’t serious and was trying to make a broader point about inequality. Now, on the other hand, I don’t get that lack of seriousness from Saraya et al. posts’, in fact, I think he and others are as serious as heart attack. Finally, I’d like to point out that when I did write about the whites and autism. I said it was racist a few posts after and apologized. The difference between you and me is that I have the confidence and honesty in my viewpoint that I can say I made a mistake or admit I messed up. Hell, just see my previous post about _Blink_ to **Human Action** regarding Paul Ekman. Or ask **Bricker** about the email I sent to him. You guys, on the other hand, cannot. You cling to always being right, never wrong, and surely, never, ever racist. Your shit doesn’t stink, so yes, when I said “white people can’t bullshit”, it was poorly phrased, but from my perspective and even in this thread, the adage has become almost proverbial. > [@Steophan](#): > > You _also_ seem to think that, because someone has posted racist statements in the past, anything they post in the future is invalid. Exactly so, **Steophan**. Although I _initially_ look at posts all individually, every statement we put on this message board builds on the next, almost like pages in book that make up the “gestalt” of our persona on the message board, for better or for worse. So, if someone said “black people get what they deserve” in isolation, it’s OK, but if it’s a pattern of anti-black statement, how can one not step back and see the big picture and only focus on the individual statement in isolation? It’s likely purposely burying one’s hand in the sand. > [@Steophan](#): > > … their statements should be judged on their own merits, not discounted because you dislike the person. The stars must be alignment today because we are in agreement. The only thing I would add is statements should also be judged, in part, by one’s previous statements. - Honesty [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=507) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=509)