# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 514
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10263 "2013-05-28T21:03:30Z")
Who knew that all this time I could have attacked anyone who challenged me and it would be their fault? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2013, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10264 "2013-05-28T22:11:45Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > My argument is, if it’s who iniated the confrontation that’s important – then that’s Zimmerman by virtue of the fact that he got out of his truck to specifically go after Martin. > > And let me head you off at the pass. He didn’t get out of his truck to go look for a street sign in someone’s back yard, so don’t even try to sell me that one. Speaking to the dispatcher, Zimmerman reports that Martin “is running”, stops pursuit when asked, notes that “[Martin] ran”, then states that he “[doesn’t] know where this kid is.” So, in your theory, what events follow this? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10265 "2013-05-29T00:59:44Z")
The June 6 hearing should really be interesting, when Ben Kruidbos testifies. He’s the whistle blower that worked in the prosecutor’s office, and let the defense know that the prosecutor was hiding and manipulating evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10266 "2013-05-29T01:18:40Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Whoah. I missed that one. Martin \*confronted \*Zimmerman while Zimmerman was sitting in his car? How did he do that? By walking on the same street that Zimmerman was parked on? Or are you subscribing to this ridiculous “Martin stalked laps around Zimmerman’s truck whlie thinking menacing thoughts about him” notion? Do you have a cite that shows this did not happen? in both the the call to police and the video walk-through he describes Martin approaching his truck and staring at him. again, do you have a cite that Martin has been tarred and feathered in the media? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10267 "2013-05-29T01:57:31Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > On the medical report, look under “Active Medications - Pre-Existing”. Note that Zimmerman was taking glucosamine. Now, look under “Diagnosis”. Note the entry for sacroiliitis. > > [Glucosamine](http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-and-supplements/lifestyle-guide-11/supplement-guide-glucosamine) is a treatment for joint pain, such as arthritis and sacroiliitis. > > Put these facts together, and it’s clear that Zimmerman had a pre-existing case of sacroiliitis, for which he was taking medication, which was aggravated by the struggle with Martin. What is/are the other fact(s) I am supposed to put with GZ taking an OTC supplement? And how am I supposed to get around the highlighted words below? page 2 of the pdf “3. Sl Joint pain: **Likely due to the assault**.” “Also complaining of left Sl joint tenderness **since the event**.” How am I to rule out that GZ was taking a supplement for some other reason? How am I to rule out that the Dr asked GZ about the source of his SI pain? > [@Shodan](#): > > Has the judge mentioned why this should be included? What does it have to do with the trial? > I think anybody paying attention is past the “innocent kid skipping along merrily with a song in his heart and Skittles in his pocket” a long time ago. > > Regards, > Shodan The skipping comes from one of GZ accounts. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10268 "2013-05-29T01:58:42Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Judge agrees to inquire whether Prosecutors buried evidence. A surprise witness at the hearing exposed a conspiracy to conceal discovery by the Prosecution. By the way, apparently Trayvon was into kiddie porn from the naked picture on his cellphone. I heard he was a communist who worshiped teh Satan. [He also kicked kittens.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KickTheDog) ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10269 "2013-05-29T02:01:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It’s starting to look even more open and shut now than it did before. The way the media initially reported the case bordered on malpractice. IF the case is so open and shut, why does O’Mara need more time? Is he a boob of some sort? If he is a competent lawyer, perhaps the case is not as straight forward as some internet attorneys opine. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10270 "2013-05-29T03:28:51Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > IF the case is so open and shut, why does O’Mara need more time? > Is he a boob of some sort? > > If he is a competent lawyer, perhaps the case is not as straight forward as some internet attorneys opine. No competent lawyer will ever say or behave as if the case he has is “open and shut”. No matter how “open and shut” it is. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10271 "2013-05-29T03:42:24Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > What is/are the other fact(s) I am supposed to put with GZ taking an OTC supplement? Taking glucosamine before incident + sacroiliitis. This was the day after the shooting, remember, and glucosamine is listed as a pre-existing active medication. > [@PatriotX](#): > > And how am I supposed to get around the highlighted words below? > page 2 of the pdf > “3. Sl Joint pain: **Likely due to the assault**.” > “Also complaining of left Sl joint tenderness **since the event**.” You don’t need to “get around” them. Would it strike you as odd if someone with arthritis who, say, punched a wall, attributed the flare-up in arthritis pain to punching the wall? Chronic conditions can be aggravated by circumstances or exertion. > [@PatriotX](#): > > How am I to rule out that GZ was taking a supplement for some other reason? Such as? > [@PatriotX](#): > > How am I to rule out that the Dr asked GZ about the source of his SI pain? It seems clear that he/she did so. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10272 "2013-05-29T03:43:42Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > IF the case is so open and shut, why does O’Mara need more time? > Is he a boob of some sort? > > If he is a competent lawyer, perhaps the case is not as straight forward as some internet attorneys opine. There’s also the matter of the prosecution withholding evidence. That tends to make it harder to prepare one’s case on time. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10273 "2013-05-29T12:45:22Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Speaking to the dispatcher, Zimmerman reports that Martin “is running”, stops pursuit when asked, notes that “[Martin] ran”, then states that he “[doesn’t] know where this kid is.” > > So, in your theory, what events follow this? Zimmerman went and found out where the kid was, and I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that he tried to detain him somehow, so he ended up getting into a fight with him, and shot him when he started losing. Zimmerman is morally culpable in this whole mess because he knew what he might be getting into, which is why he was toting his gun around. He didn’t go back there to have a friendly conversation with the amiable stranger in his neighborhood. He went there for some rootin’-tootin’ cop bidness – and by golly that’s just what he got. Yee haw! Now is fucked-up Florida going to give a shit about that? Of course not. Lawful gun-owners/self-appointed neighborhood watch captains just sometimes have to shoot black people. Unfortunate, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. I’m not even going to address all this Gish gallop mumbo jumbo about Zimmerman walking a block away to find a street sign for a street he wasn’t on – how he witnessed Martin running laps around his truck and looking mean at him – how Martin “brought the situation” to Zimmerman by somehow convincing him to get out of his truck and go follow him behind the houses. Zimmerman is morally culpable for Martin’s death, and one year from now, no one will even know that pussy was ever in jail. He’ll probably be on the fucking cover of Gun Stroker Monthly. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10274 "2013-05-29T12:51:25Z")
I can concede that maybe Zimmerman is morally culpable, but only if your theory that he actually tried to detain Martin was correct. If Martin ran away and Zimmerman went back to his van, and Martin ambushed him, then Martin is the one in the wrong. at no point did Martin ever have the right to attack him. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10275 "2013-05-29T12:54:09Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman went and found out where the kid was, and I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that he tried to detain him somehow, so he ended up getting into a fight with him, and shot him when he started losing. Meaning that Martin was hiding, and Zimmerman discovered him? Is that what you mean? Because given the time elapsed and the short distance between the fight and Zimmerman’s truck, there’s no way Zimmerman chased Martin down. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10276 "2013-05-29T13:44:17Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman went and found out where the kid was, and I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that he tried to detain him somehow, so he ended up getting into a fight with him, and shot him when he started losing. > > Zimmerman is morally culpable in this whole mess because he knew what he might be getting into, which is why he was toting his gun around. He didn’t go back there to have a friendly conversation with the amiable stranger in his neighborhood. He went there for some rootin’-tootin’ cop bidness – and by golly that’s just what he got. Yee haw! > > Now is fucked-up Florida going to give a shit about that? Of course not. Lawful gun-owners/self-appointed neighborhood watch captains just sometimes have to shoot black people. Unfortunate, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles. > > I’m not even going to address all this Gish gallop mumbo jumbo about Zimmerman walking a block away to find a street sign for a street he wasn’t on – how he witnessed Martin running laps around his truck and looking mean at him – how Martin “brought the situation” to Zimmerman by somehow convincing him to get out of his truck and go follow him behind the houses. > > Zimmerman is morally culpable for Martin’s death, and one year from now, no one will even know that pussy was ever in jail. He’ll probably be on the fucking cover of Gun Stroker Monthly. A rather one sided fight, when only one person gets all the bruises. Multiple witnesses say the altercation begin at the T and moved south, indicating Trayvon returned to the T. Why would Zimmerman have to find him? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10277 "2013-05-29T14:22:35Z")
[QUOTE=Jack Batty] Zimmerman went and found out where the kid was, and I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that he tried to detain him somehow… [/quote] I guess that’s where we differ. There is no evidence to date that Zimmerman tried to detain Martin, so I don’t assume it is so. > [@](#): > > …, so he ended up getting into a fight with him, and shot him when he started losing. This part I agree with, providing that by “ended up getting into a fight with him” you mean “Martin attacked Zimmerman unprovoked, knocked him down, broke his nose, blackened his eyes, and sat on top of him bashing his head into the ground”. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman is morally culpable in this whole mess because he knew what he might be getting into, which is why he was toting his gun around. IIRC Zimmerman was on his way to the grocery store, not on patrol (or whatever the neighborhood watch equivalent would be called). And I don’t understand why Zimmerman is morally culpable “because he knew what he might be getting into”. It is certainly true that some violent punk could attack the neighborhood watch guy - in fact, that seems to be what happened. But that doesn’t make the neighborhood watch guy morally culpable, unless he initiated the attack or provoked it in some way. And asking or demanding that a strange teenager account for himself is neither illegal, nor, IMO, immoral. There had been several housebreakings in Zimmerman’s neighborhood in the past few months - that’s why he was the neighborhood watch guy. And I’ve asked this again and again - if Zimmerman was so eager to use his gun, and was relying on it for his safety, why did he have it tucked away instead of in his hand? If he were eager to use the gun, he would have had it out and ready. If he had had it out and ready, Martin would not have attacked, and would not been able to break his nose and put gashes in his head. But Martin did attack, and break his nose and put gashes in his head. _Ergo_, Zimmerman did not have his gun out and ready, and also _ergo_ Zimmerman was not so eager to use his gun as you seem to think. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10278 "2013-05-29T15:18:02Z")
That just shows how diabolically clever Zimmerman is: he knew he needed to get beaten up to justify the shooting, so he let Martin whale away on him for a bit, being careful not to leave a mark on Martin, until the moment was just right, then he drew and shot him. It’s a fool-proof plan! ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10279 "2013-05-29T16:01:32Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > That just shows how diabolically clever Zimmerman is: he knew he needed to get beaten up to justify the shooting, so he let Martin whale away on him for a bit, being careful not to leave a mark on Martin, until the moment was just right, then he drew and shot him. It’s a fool-proof plan! Using his satanic mentality, Zimmerman knew exactly when the police would arrive, and that no one would be watching from the townhouse windows. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10280 "2013-05-29T16:11:03Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Using his satanic mentality, Zimmerman knew exactly when the police would arrive, and that no one would be watching from the townhouse windows. And he knew instantly that his single shot was fatal. Truly, a master criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10281 "2013-05-29T17:41:58Z")
He knew he had his gun to bail him out. He never would have gone chasing after Martin without it. He knew that if something went south he could just solve the problem with a bullet. Martin knew no such thing. All he knew was some dude was following him. Diabolical planning had nothing to do with it. Laziness in the form of - fuck it, I got a gun - had a lot to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10282 "2013-05-29T17:44:51Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman went and found out where the kid was, and I wouldn’t doubt for a minute that he tried to detain him somehow, so he ended up getting into a fight with him, and shot him when he started losing. The evidence indicates where the fight started and from both accounts neither saw each other earlier. Zimmerman is still at the top of the T and Martin tells Dee Dee that he’s at his father’s house. Martin HAS to back track to be where the fight starts. Ignoring the evidence is nothing but intellectual vigilantism. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman is morally culpable in this whole mess because he knew what he might be getting into, which is why he was toting his gun around. He didn’t go back there to have a friendly conversation with the amiable stranger in his neighborhood. He went there for some rootin’-tootin’ cop bidness – and by golly that’s just what he got. Yee haw! Based on the evidence provided by Martin himself he went out of his way to confront Zimmerman. He then went on to beat him without any signs of letting up relief from people living there. Zimmerman showed great restraint in the use of the gun. Martin, whose HOBBY is getting into fights, showed no mercy to his victim. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I’m not even going to address… You haven’t addressed anything. Evidence is meaningless to you. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman is morally culpable for Martin’s death, and one year from now, no one will even know that pussy was ever in jail. He’ll probably be on the fucking cover of Gun Stroker Monthly. Without uttering a word in his defense the evidence shows Martin attacked Zimmerman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=513) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=515)