# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 516
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10303 "2013-05-29T20:23:54Z")
[http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Prosecutor-in-George-Zimmerman-Case-accused-of/q3dHwS0hgUmO-4keGbO8cA.cspx](http://www.actionnewsjax.com/content/topstories/story/Prosecutor-in-George-Zimmerman-Case-accused-of/q3dHwS0hgUmO-4keGbO8cA.cspx) Cases have been dismissed for less than this, but apparently Florida is a bit different. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10304 "2013-05-29T20:25:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You have a guy that exited his truck to follow a pedestrian in a dark alleyway, after a sustained period of pursuit. And then lost sight of the person, and ended up in a fight with him minutes later on the same spot. That requires Martin coming to Zimmerman. > [@you with the face](#): > > There is zero evidence that the pedestrian had any beef with the guy, but there is evidence that the guy had an issue with the pedestrian. He thought he was a suspicious person and notified police of that, sure. > [@you with the face](#): > > The guy had minor cuts on his head that didn’t even require dressing, let alone stitches. And a broken nose and black eyes. > [@you with the face](#): > > The guy outweighed the pedestrian by 40 lbs and was armed. The pedestrian was unarmed and had nothing in his possession except candy, a beverage can, and a phone he was using seconds before he was killed. Short, fat guys aren’t legendary for their combat prowess. > [@you with the face](#): > > Witnesses asserted that they heard a boy yelling for help immediately before the pedestrian was shot. The pedestrian was a boy. The guy who shot him is not a boy. You list _this_ as indisputable? Witness 45 claims with “110%” certainty that Zimmerman was yelling for help. “John” also claims that it was Zimmerman. > [@you with the face](#): > > These are the inidsputable facts in this case. Everything else is fluff, filler, or uncorroborated. You left out plenty: other witness statements, the autopsy report, the physical crime scene, the NEN call recording & transcript, and the voice stress test, for a start. > [@you with the face](#): > > The jury will be presented with these facts and asked to determine if the defendant is guilty of murder. If Zimmerman does not take the stand, the jury will have no valid reason to believe Martin even touched Zimmerman, let alone put him in reasonable fear for his life. They’d have an autopsy report showing Martin with bruised knuckles, and photos from the scene and after showing Zimmerman’s broken nose. That’s evidence that Martin “touched” Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10305 "2013-05-29T20:27:02Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not true, there were eye witnesses to the beating and it’s clear who was doing The undisputable facts are the location it took place in and who was beaten up. The conclusions from the evidence will be that Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman. What evidence is there that Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman? But let’s go with this. So you assume that if Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman, this means he would have done so with violent, aggressive intent. Is this right? We know Zimmerman left his truck to chase after Martin and “see where he went”. Why do you not see this action as evidence of violent, aggressive intent, but when we’re talking about Martin, everything changes? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10306 "2013-05-29T20:27:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I challenge those who think Zimmerman is innocent to supply one indisputable fact–not an opinion, not supposition, not speculation, not a unverified claim–that supports the idea Zimmerman killed Martin lawfully. > > I’ll even give you a freebie, even though it’s weak: Its inarguable that the back of Zimmerman’s head was nicked a couple times. Of course, it’s NOT inarguable that Martin inflicted these injuries, which is an important detail if someone is trying to claim self-defense. But he did have some scrapes. > > What else is there? Witnesses saw two people, one person sitting on another, beating him up. Do you recognize that as an indisputable fact? Zimmerman’s back was wet and had grass stains. Martin’s wasn’t. Who do you think was sitting on whom? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10307 "2013-05-29T20:32:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I challenge those who think Zimmerman is innocent to supply one indisputable fact–not an opinion, not supposition, not speculation, not a unverified claim–that supports the idea Zimmerman killed Martin lawfully. > > I’ll even give you a freebie, even though it’s weak: Its inarguable that the back of Zimmerman’s head was nicked a couple times. Of course, it’s NOT inarguable that Martin inflicted these injuries, which is an important detail if someone is trying to claim self-defense. But he did have some scrapes. > > What else is there? I only think he’s not guilty, which isn’t the same thing. But, going ahead anyway: - Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to his head. - Martin had only bruised knuckles. - Witnesses report Martin atop Zimmerman. The grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and Martin’s knees support this as well. - Witnesses report Zimmerman calling out for help. That all supports a claim of Zimmerman under attack from Martin, for a start. ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10308 "2013-05-29T20:32:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Witnesses saw two people, one person sitting on another, beating him up. Do you recognize that as an indisputable fact? > > Zimmerman’s back was wet and had grass stains. Martin’s wasn’t. Who do you think was sitting on whom? Sorry about the double post. Martin’s pant knees were grass stained, indicating that he was straddling Zimmernan. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10309 "2013-05-29T20:35:13Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I only think he’s not guilty, which isn’t the same thing. But, going ahead anyway: > > - Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to his head. > - Martin had only bruised knuckles. > - Witnesses report Martin atop Zimmerman. The grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and Martin’s knees support this as well. > - Witnesses report Zimmerman calling out for help. > > That all supports a claim of Zimmerman under attack from Martin, for a start. To be perfectly technical, the only thing that tells us is that Zimmerman was losing a fight … not who started it. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10310 "2013-05-29T20:35:50Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > They’d have an autopsy report showing Martin with bruised knuckles, and photos from the scene and after showing Zimmerman’s broken nose. That’s evidence that Martin “touched” Zimmerman. I have a cut on my finger right now. Is it inarguable that I incurred this cut by punching Zimmerman in the face? No. A photo of Zimmerman does not establish that he had a broken nose. Photos taken that same night show a nose that looked perfectly fine. He was never diagnosed with a broken nose by a qualified specialist, and at any rate, unless he testifies that Martin caused this alleged broken nose, the jury will have no reason to think it was inflicted by anyone other than his clumsy self. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10311 "2013-05-29T20:39:36Z")
Also, Martin’s phone and Zimmerman’s flashlight were found right at the T, north of where the shooting occured. This is where Zimmerman ended his phone call, and reported losing sight of Martin. Given the elapsed time, this suggests Zimmerman staying at the top of the T, and Martin, having run away, returning there. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10312 "2013-05-29T20:41:15Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > To be perfectly technical, the only thing that tells us is that Zimmerman was losing a fight … not who started it. As said, I think he’s not guilty, because without evidence that he started the fight, reasonable doubt demands it. Also, are you ever going to explain your theory of the crime? You seem dead-set against it, odd for someone so convinced of Zimmerman’s guilt. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10313 "2013-05-29T20:41:36Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > To be perfectly technical, the only thing that tells us is that Zimmerman was losing a fight … not who started it. According to Florida laws, it doesn’t matter who started a fight, if the person has reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury, the shooting is justified. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10314 "2013-05-29T20:45:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I have a cut on my finger right now. Is it inarguable that I incurred this cut by punching Zimmerman in the face? No. No, but you weren’t discovered next to someone who’d been punched in the face, nor did witnesses see you atop of him, fighting. > [@you with the face](#): > > A photo of Zimmerman does not establish that he had a broken nose. Photos taken that same night show a nose that looked perfectly fine. He was never diagnosed with a broken nose by a qualified specialist, and at any rate, unless he testifies that Martin caused this alleged broken nose, the jury will have no reason to think it was inflicted by anyone other than his clumsy self. It looks exactly like a broken nose to me. The medical report from the next day includes “nasal bones, closed fracture” as a diagnosis, as well as “open wound of scalp”. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10315 "2013-05-29T20:45:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman is the only one who can testify that Martin did what he claimed. If he doesn’t take the stand, the defense will be unable to argue that the shooting was justified. Your opinion about the legal process is worth about as much as it usually is. As I said, there is evidence to show that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and none to show that Zimmerman attacked Martin. Your notion that Zimmerman’s attorneys cannot put forward a defense without Zimmerman testifying is laughably wrong. > [@](#): > > So you assume that if Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman, this means he would have done so with violent, aggressive intent. Is this right? > > We know Zimmerman left his truck to chase after Martin and “see where he went”. Why do you not see this action as evidence of violent, aggressive intent, but when we’re talking about Martin, everything changes? The injuries to both parties tend to demonstrate that Martin acted violently and aggressively. They also demonstrate that Zimmerman did not. If Martin hadn’t attacked Zimmerman, it would not be reasonable to interpret Martin’s coming back from a place of safety as an aggressive act. But Martin did attack Zimmerman. Therefore it is natural, and almost inevitable, to interpret his actions differently. IOW the person who attacks the other is the one whose actions can be interpreted as the aggressive one. Since there is no evidence of Zimmerman’s aggression, and there is evidence of Martin’s, that is the explanation that makes sense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10316 "2013-05-29T20:46:23Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I only think he’s not guilty, which isn’t the same thing. But, going ahead anyway: > > - Zimmerman had a broken nose and wounds to his head. He never was diagnosed with a broken nose. He was seen breathing out of his nose on the interrogation tape and whatever swelling he might have had magically disppeared when the cops took his photo at the station. > [@](#): > > - Martin had only bruised knuckles He had a 1/4" abrasion on one of his fingers. So “knuckles” my ass. At any given moment, half of humanity is probably walking with much worse due to paper cut type incidents. Just like Zimmerman’s nicks, he could has sustained this injury in the course of rolling on the ground. > [@](#): > > - Witnesses report Martin atop Zimmerman. The grass stains on Zimmerman’s back and Martin’s knees support this as well. I need to see cites about these stains. Last time I read the forensic reports, there was nothing in there about grass stains. > [@](#): > > - Witnesses report Zimmerman calling out for help. The only witness (emphasis on the singluar) who said this–“John”–has now said he doesn’t know who was yelling for help. The only thing that is inarguable is that he’s retracted his earlier statements and is pretty much useless to the defense now. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10317 "2013-05-29T20:51:53Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > As I said, there is evidence to show that Martin attacked Zimmerman, and none to show that Zimmerman attacked Martin. The bullet in Martin’s chest that came from Zimmerman’s gun is plenty of evidence of that. > [@](#): > > Your notion that Zimmerman’s attorneys cannot put forward a defense without Zimmerman testifying is laughably wrong. Explain then how they will introduce evidence that Martin confronted Zimmerman, punched him, pounded his head into the ground, smothered him, and then threated him…if Zimmerman doesn’t take the stand? If I’m so wrong about this, then you should be easily be able to propose a mechanism by which O’Mara can argue these claims without the benefit of the only witness making them. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10318 "2013-05-29T20:52:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He was never diagnosed with a broken nose by a qualified specialist… Back on this horseshit again? I really, really hope the prosecution makes an allegation as stupid as this one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10319 "2013-05-29T20:52:19Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > As said, I think he’s not guilty, because without evidence that he started the fight, reasonable doubt demands it. > > Also, are you ever going to explain your theory of the crime? You seem dead-set against it, odd for someone so convinced of Zimmerman’s guilt. Dude, I’ve laid out what I think happened a number of times in this thread, and I don’t feel like running around that mulberry bush again. Here’s the nutshell. Zimmerman sees Martin. Martin sees Zimmerman. Martin runs behind the houses. Zimmerman gets out of his car to chase Martin. They lose sight of each other - maybe Martin’s hiding, maybe he’s just hanging out behind the houses because he thought he lost Zimmerman. They find each other in the dark. A fight ensues. Zimmerman pisses his pants and shoots Martin. Zimmerman tells the police what a hero he is. The conjecture that I throw in the middle of it all is that I wouldn’t doubt it if Zimmerman tried to detain Martin. He was on official crime-stopping duty after all. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10320 "2013-05-29T20:59:28Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What evidence is there that Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman? The distance between the point of confrontation and Martin’s house. How, in all the pages of discussion, can you not understand this? > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But let’s go with this. So you assume that if Martin left his house to confront Zimmerman, this means he would have done so with violent, aggressive intent. Is this right? Yes, that is correct. Martin, a person who works out and likes to fight went out of his way to confront someone who was suspicious of. He didn’t call the police, he went back to confront him. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > We know Zimmerman left his truck to chase after Martin and “see where he went”. Why do you not see this action as evidence of violent, aggressive intent, but when we’re talking about Martin, everything changes? At no time was Zimmerman in close pursuit of Martin. Martin is already out of sight when Zimmerman breaks off running. This is confirmed by Martin. They’ve lost sight of each other. The difference is that Zimmerman stays on the sidewalk that leads to his truck. If he intended a confrontation he would have turned right and gone in the last known direction of Martin. If he intended to harm Martin he wouldn’t have called the police in the first place. If he intended to harm Martin we would have heard threats made during the phone call Dee Dee heard but Zimmerman was unaware of. Martin’s behavior was suspicious to Zimmerman. He knew the person who lived at the home and property that Martin was trespassing on. He has a right to be suspicious and acted correctly by calling the police. Martin, whether he was looking for a house to break into or not, would see Zimmerman’s actions as suspicious. He did the wrong thing. Instead of walking into his father’s house (remember he lost sight of Zimmerman at this point) he goes back to the last known location. Martin had a phone in his hand and could have called the police. They would have put 2 and 2 together and explained to him the situation. Instead he goes out of his way to confront Zimmerman and then pummels him relentlessly using the skills of his hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10321 "2013-05-29T21:03:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He never was diagnosed with a broken nose. He was seen breathing out of his nose on the interrogation tape and whatever swelling he might have had magically disppeared when the cops took his photo at the station. Yes, he was diagnosed with a broken nose. You can breathe through a broken nose. > [@you with the face](#): > > He had a 1/4" abrasion on one of his fingers. So “knuckles” my ass. At any given moment, half of humanity is probably walking with much worse due to paper cut type incidents. Just like Zimmerman’s nicks, he could has sustained this injury in the course of rolling on the ground. It’s evidence of throwing a punch. > [@you with the face](#): > > I need to see cites about these stains. Last time I read the forensic reports, there was nothing in there about grass stains. [Here’s the photo of Martin’s pants knee](http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022900751). It was from a batch of 80 photos released by the prosecution on May 23. Do you need a cite for Zimmerman’s stains, as well? That’s been out a lot longer. > [@you with face](#): > > The only witness (emphasis on the singluar) who said this–“John”–has now said he doesn’t know who was yelling for help. The only thing that is inarguable is that he’s retracted his earlier statements and is pretty much useless to the defense now. Witness 45 claimed that the voice was Zimmerman’s. Witness 6 claims that Martin was atop Zimmerman, though it’s true that he no longer claims to be sure who was crying out. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10322 "2013-05-29T21:04:39Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Also, Martin’s phone and Zimmerman’s flashlight were found right at the T, north of where the shooting occured. This is where Zimmerman ended his phone call, and reported losing sight of Martin. Given the elapsed time, this suggests Zimmerman staying at the top of the T, and Martin, having run away, returning there. Even if this supposition is true, why does mean that Martin beat up Zimmerman? What should make us view Martin’s behavior as more suspicious than the armed man who exited his truck in the rain to chase after a pedestrian walking home from the 7/11? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=515) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=517)