# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 530
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10583 "2013-06-06T21:12:11Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lol. Zimmerman said his face was covered with blood during the fight and claimed the kid was grabbing his head and slamming it with force. Let us also not forget about the alleged smothering attempt. Martin’s hands would’ve touched Zimmerman’s mouth and bleeding nose if this were true, and yet no blood, spit, snot, or skin cells wound up under his fingernails. > > You claim this is entirely possible. What makes you qualified to say this? Do you know how much shedded DNA the average person has sitting on their face at any given moment? Do you know the sensitivity of the DNA tests used by the State lab? Do you know how many people get involved in attacks like this and manage to test negative for DNA/blood? > > How could you possible know it is “entirely possible” for this forsensic finding to match up with Zimmerman’s story? What are your qualifications? What has any of that got to do with whether Martin struck Zimmerman? Even if Zimmerman is lying about the grabbing, smothering, and so forth, what does that have to do with the punching and bashing his head against the ground? Also, if you want to claim that the lack of DNA proves he didn’t do it, you have to prove that there’s no other way that there could be no DNA there, not simply claim it. Why are you _still_ ignoring the burden of proof on the prosecution? Oh, and do you have any evidence that they even tested for the DNA? Because if not, this is just another smokescreen you are putting up. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10584 "2013-06-06T21:12:37Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It was rainy and it was dark. Slick surfaces everywhere. There were trees, signs, sprinkler heads, and other pointy objects in the environment. > > If you seriously can’t see how easy it would have been for Zimmerman to have slipped and clunked his head against something, then you’re not really thinking. The back of his head is [covered](http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/2iXavhZSChU/hqdefault.jpg)with [abrasions](http://i0.wp.com/media.miamiherald.com/smedia/2012/05/17/18/25/1boREJ.St.56.jpeg?resize=345%2C229). The burden of proof that they did not occur per Zimmerman’s and witness accounts is on the state. The state has to have some indication that it occurred another way. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s in discovery and I’m not going to waste my time pouring through documents to find something you already should have knowledge about, since you’re bold enough to be arguing about this case. > > The state analyzed Martin’s fingernail clippings and found no Zimmerman residue (DNA or blood) on them. > > This only tells us that the two were scuffling. Zimmerman’s injuries could have been inflicted before or after the scuffling took place, and they could have been inflicted during the scuffling if Zimmerman collided against something incidentally. “Scuffling” doesn’t prove Martin was the source of Zimmerman’s injuries. The evidence indicates that one person was on top of the other in a fight. One person has injuries consistent with being punched and his head slammed into the cement and one does not. Your suggestion that they “could” have happened some other way is not logical and lacks any proof that it did. In short, you’re making unsubstantiated claims. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Witness 6 did not say he saw Martin punching or slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground. His “or” statements make it clear he wasn’t sure what he saw. The two nicks on the back of Zimmerman’s head are not obviously connected to what he saw. Just like the other witness, his statement confirms there was a physical altercation. It’s not strong enough evidence to preclude all explanations except Martin inflicting injury to Zimmerman. BTW, since you can’t be bothered to cite anything I’ll do your work for you. [Here](http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)is where you can find the information regarding fingernail clippings. It’s on page 106. Now explain why Martin would have DNA under his fingernails. According to zimmerman he was punched by Martin and his head was pushed into the cement. He never mentions being scratched by Martin. It wasn’t a cat fight. It was a street fight consistent with Martin’s hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10585 "2013-06-06T21:17:50Z")
> [@Mgalindo13](#): > > Lastly, even IF Martin did not intend to break his nose and hit his head on concrete, those two injuries alone can easily produce intense fear. As someone who has practiced martial arts for many years, I can tell you that even in controlled situations and with protective gear, getting mounted and being hit in the face produces panic and fear very quickly. And that’s in a controlled situation where you can surrender. In a street fight, you’re toast if someone gets on top of you and there’s nobody around to stop it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10586 "2013-06-06T21:25:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > BTW, since you can’t be bothered to cite anything I’ll do your work for you. [Here](http://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/357450/trayvon-martin-documents-ocr.pdf)is where you can find the information regarding fingernail clippings. It’s on page 106. Fingernail _scrapings_, not clippings, and from one hand only. Basically, unless Martin scratched Zimmerman with his right hand at some point, there’s no reason there would be DNA residue there. I think someone’s been watching too many bad TV shows if they think DNA gives magic answers. None of Zimmerman’s injuries appear to match a fingernail scratch, so there’s no reason we should expect his DNA to be there, even if his story is entirely true. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10587 "2013-06-06T21:31:46Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lol. Zimmerman said his face was covered with blood during the fight and claimed the kid was grabbing his head and slamming it with force. Let us also not forget about the alleged smothering attempt. Martin’s hands would’ve touched Zimmerman’s mouth and bleeding nose if this were true, and yet no blood, spit, snot, or skin cells wound up under his fingernails. There is no logical reason for Zimmerman’s DNA to be under Martin’s fingernails unless he stuck a finger up Zimmerman’s nose. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > How could you possible know it is “entirely possible” for this forsensic finding to match up with Zimmerman’s story? What are your qualifications? There is no mention in Zimmerman’s story about being scratched. He was punched and his head was grabbed and pushed into the cement. The only possible place for blood would have been from covering his mouth if his nose was bleeding at that point and his fingernails would not be involved in this maneuver. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10588 "2013-06-06T21:35:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Fingernail _scrapings_, not clippings, and from one hand only. Basically, unless Martin scratched Zimmerman with his right hand at some point, there’s no reason there would be DNA residue there. I think someone’s been watching too many bad TV shows if they think DNA gives magic answers. > > None of Zimmerman’s injuries appear to match a fingernail scratch, so there’s no reason we should expect his DNA to be there, even if his story is entirely true. “clippings” was the terminology YWTF used. I just gave her the correct source. To suggest someone other than Martin created Zimmerman’s wounds is just stupid and there is no other word for it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10589 "2013-06-06T21:53:09Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Lol. Zimmerman said his face was covered with blood during the fight and claimed the kid was grabbing his head and slamming it with force. Let us also not forget about the alleged smothering attempt. Martin’s hands would’ve touched Zimmerman’s mouth and bleeding nose if this were true, and yet no blood, spit, snot, or skin cells wound up under his fingernails. > > You claim this is entirely possible. What makes you qualified to say this? Do you know how much shedded DNA the average person has sitting on their face at any given moment? Do you know the sensitivity of the DNA tests used by the State lab? Do you know how many people get involved in attacks like this and manage to test negative for DNA/blood? > > How could you possible know it is “entirely possible” for this forsensic finding to match up with Zimmerman’s story? What are your qualifications? Ah, I see the problem. You read “Martin inflicted Zimmerman’s injuries” and turned it in to “Zimmerman’s story is the gospel truth”. I said nothing about Zimmerman’s story, I’m referring only to three pieces of evidence, none of which are his statement(s). I’ve remarked several times that I don’t believe Zimmerman’s account to be the infallible truth, because a) I don’t know him from Adam, and b) the stress he was under, _guilty or not_, makes his memory of the events highly suspect. Yes, you can strike someone without getting their DNA under your fingernails. > [@you with the face](#): > > If what I posted sounds extreme, it’s only because I’m responding to someone who keeps making extreme declarative statements about inferences. Non-extreme declaration: The injuries to both parties, which are consistent with a fight, are the result of the fight that was witnessed. Extreme declaration: The injuries to Zimmerman are the result of a spectacular pratfall, which injured the front and the back of his head. The injury to Martin just happened at some point pre-fight. The fight that was witnessed resulted in no injuries. Or, Zimmerman injured himself in front of witnesses, and presumably swore them to secrecy. > [@Magiver](#): > > Here is where you can find the information regarding fingernail clippings. It’s on page 106. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10590 "2013-06-06T22:58:59Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Yes, you can strike someone without getting their DNA under your fingernails. You can also buy a donkey for $30 in Mexico. The issue of importance is whether you can attack someone _the way Zimmerman claimed Martin attack him_ without getting their DNA under your fingernails. Even if the defense had a million dollars in the bank, I doubt they could find an expert willing to say this is even remotely likely. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10591 "2013-06-06T23:07:00Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The issue of importance is whether you can attack someone _the way Zimmerman claimed Martin attack him_ without getting their DNA under your fingernails. Even if the defense had a million dollars in the bank, I doubt they could find an expert willing to say this is even remotely likely. What injuries to Zimmerman look like they were fingernail scratches? Where do you think the DNA would come from? And why do you think the likelihood of it has any bearing on the case? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10592 "2013-06-06T23:33:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You can also buy a donkey for $30 in Mexico. > > The issue of importance is whether you can attack someone _the way Zimmerman claimed Martin attack him_ without getting their DNA under your fingernails. Even if the defense had a million dollars in the bank, I doubt they could find an expert willing to say this is even remotely likely. I’ll wager you $1000 right now. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10593 "2013-06-07T01:22:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’ll wager you $1000 right now. and to settle the bet, we will give O’Mara a million dollars and a mission? … ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10594 "2013-06-07T01:57:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > They must prove 2nd degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Yes. But specifically. What specific things must they prove, or disprove, in order to get a conviction, as you understand things? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10595 "2013-06-07T02:42:04Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You can also buy a donkey for $30 in Mexico. > > The issue of importance is whether you can attack someone _the way Zimmerman claimed Martin attack him_ without getting their DNA under your fingernails. Even if the defense had a million dollars in the bank, I doubt they could find an expert willing to say this is even remotely likely. No, that is not an issue of particular importance. I already pointed out that your approach of trying to find faults with details of Zimmerman’s account would be fruitless for the prosecution; you denied that it was your approach, yet here you go again. Zimmerman doesn’t have to prove his account, and the prosecution doesn’t have to disprove it. The evidence is what matters, not anyone’s narrative. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10596 "2013-06-07T11:21:24Z")
A question… Is Zimmerman’s weight gain a problem for the defense? Does being bigger give the impression that he could handle Martin in a fight? That could be an issue in arguing self defense. IIRC Z and Martin were similar sizes when they fought? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10597 "2013-06-07T11:23:28Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > IIRC Z and Martin were similar sizes when they fought? A 40-lb differential doesn’t sound similar to me. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10598 "2013-06-07T11:27:52Z")
Did they ever report Martin’s size? The early reports were all based on how big he was at 12. They even used a misleading picture of him at that age to make him a sympathetic victim. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10599 "2013-06-07T11:34:09Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Did they ever report Martin’s size? The early reports were all based on how big he was at 12. They even used a misleading picture of him at that age to make him a sympathetic victim. IIRC, the medical examiner got a chance to get that data. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10600 "2013-06-07T12:29:20Z")
The autopsy report has Martin at 71 inches (5’ 11"), 158 pounds. [Cite.](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/17/trayvon-martin-autopsy_n_1525763.html) Zimmerman’s medical report has him at 5’ 7 1/2", 204 pounds. [Cite.](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/07/03/2880246_doctor-george-zimmerman-had-black.html) > [@aceplace57](#): > > A question… > > Is Zimmerman’s weight gain a problem for the defense? Does being bigger give the impression that he could handle Martin in a fight? That could be an issue in arguing self defense. While this is possible, I don’t think being fat is considered an advantage in a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10601 "2013-06-07T12:33:19Z")
In other news, yesterday’s final hearing was extended to today. The ruling on the audio expert testimony should be made today. Some testimony was heard on the matter yesterday, [including this:](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-06-06/news/os-george-zimmerman-trial-audio-hearing-20130606_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-special-prosecutor-angela-corey) > [@](#): > > An FBI voice examiner who tried to identify who was screaming in the background of a 911 call seconds before Trayvon Martin was shot testified Thursday that it couldn’t be done by a respectable scientist. > > Hirotaka Nakasone testified that he dissected the 45-second sample and found only three seconds in which the screams were not at least partially obscured by other sounds. > > That’s too little for a proper analysis, he said. > > “It’s not really feasible and not possible,” he testified, saying he was “disturbed” that other scientists had made identifications anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10602 "2013-06-07T12:56:30Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Some testimony was heard on the matter yesterday, [including this:](http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2013-06-06/news/os-george-zimmerman-trial-audio-hearing-20130606_1_george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-special-prosecutor-angela-corey) The more important part of that article is the further proof that the prosecution has been withholding evidence - and that the prosecution are so uninterested in justice that they’re threatening to sack the person who brought this to light. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=529) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=531)