# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 532
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10623 "2013-06-07T20:00:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It would be nice if the ABC live feed would identify who is being questioned. Right now is Alan Reich. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10624 "2013-06-07T21:44:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > See, it’s these subtle errors that get you in nearly as much trouble as your overtly large, glaring errors. > > It helps the state to show that Zimmerman was not threatened with imminent harm, yes. but what the state must actually PROVE is that Zimmerman did not have a reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. > > You see the difference? I see that all you’re about quibbling over minutia. If he was not threatened with imminent harm, then he didn’t have reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. In Zimmerman’s case, they are one and the same. The threat represented the supposed basis for Zimmerman shooting the kid. There’s evidence this threat wasn’t made, and in fact, the opposite occurred. > [@](#): > > No. Even if the jury accepts that Martin was the one screaming – and there is differing testimony on that – it could still be true that martin threatened him with death first and then screamed for help. Why would a thug hellbent on killing someone be screaming for help like that? The idea is too improbable to take seriously, and it also contradicts Zimmerman’s account. > [@](#): > > No. Zimmerman was not Clark Kent. He could have been afraid that Martin would break the wrist lock. Yeah, but Zimmerman never said that he was afraid of breaking the wrist lock. He said there was race for the gun. He “won” the race by putting the kid in a wrist lock and then, with the same arm, reached back behind himself and pulled out his gun. Then he aimed the gun and fired it into Martin’s chest. There was no fight in progress when this happened, according to witnesses and according to Zimmerman. If he was effectively able to immobilize the kid so that he could get his gun out, then the threat was neutralized at that point. There was no imminent threat because Martin wasn’t doing anything except watching him point the gun at him. And screaming for help in sheer terror. > [@](#): > > No. Martin could have seen the gun, or known about it because Zimmerman said, “I have a gun.” Again, did Zimmerman ever claim this? No he didn’t. So why make up something that could have happened, when there’s no evidence to support it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10625 "2013-06-07T22:01:14Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If he was not threatened with imminent harm, then he didn’t have reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. Please cite caselaw that this is the case in Florida, because it’s not what a plain reading of the law says, nor is it how such laws are usually applied. If Zimmerman was put in reasonable fear by Martin, it’s reasonable for him to remain in fear until Martin retreats and clearly signals that his aggression is over. That is clearly not what happened here. > [@](#): > > In Zimmerman’s case, they are one and the same. The threat represented the supposed basis for Zimmerman shooting the kid. There’s evidence this threat wasn’t made, and in fact, the opposite occurred. He had reason to be in fear from the moment Martin broke his nose, regardless of any threats. > [@](#): > > Why would a thug hellbent on killing someone be screaming for help like that? The idea is too improbable to take seriously, and it also contradicts Zimmerman’s account. Still doesn’t prove it wasn’t self defence. Once again, even if your crazy theories are correct, it still doesn’t make him guilty. > [@](#): > > Yeah, but Zimmerman never said that he was afraid of breaking the wrist lock. He said there was race for the gun. He “won” the race by putting the kid in a wrist lock and then, with the same arm, reached back behind himself and pulled out his gun. Then he aimed the gun and fired it into Martin’s chest. There was no fight in progress when this happened, according to witnesses and according to Zimmerman. Perhaps you could cite this claim, that conveniently no-one else remembers hearing? Then, even if you’re right, prove that Zimmerman was not in some way mistaken due to the stress of the occasion. > [@](#): > > If he was effectively able to immobilize the kid so that he could get his gun out, then the threat was neutralized at that point. There was no imminent threat because Martin wasn’t doing anything except watching him point the gun at him. And screaming for help in sheer terror. False. The threat ending requires _Martin_ to end his aggression, unless Zimmerman stops it. Restraining him won’t achieve that, as it’s temporary. > [@](#): > > Again, did Zimmerman ever claim this? No he didn’t. So why make up something that could have happened, when there’s no evidence to support it? A question we’ve asked you again and again, and which you repeatedly fail to answer. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10626 "2013-06-07T23:11:50Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I see that all you’re about quibbling over minutia. > > If he was not threatened with imminent harm, then he didn’t have reasonable fear of serious bodily harm. That’s absolutely untrue, as a matter of law. Nor do i see how it can possibly be correct under the facts of this case. In any event, it’s not minutia. The prosecution must disprove Zimmerman’s actual fear or the reasonableness of it. It is legally insufficient for them to simply disprove the absence fo an actual threat without addressing the reasonableness of his subjective belief. If they fail to do that, he will be acquitted: a matter you have certainly demonstrated you don’t regard as minutia. > [@](#): > > In Zimmerman’s case, they are one and the same. The threat represented the supposed basis for Zimmerman shooting the kid. There’s evidence this threat wasn’t made, and in fact, the opposite occurred. Yes, there’s evidence. Is it evidence beyond a reasonabel doubt, or is it evidence that’s simply more likely than other other scenarios which are also reasonably possible. You haven’t answered my question, by the way: Specifically, Mrs. Riley, what must the prosecution prove (or disprove) to convict Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10627 "2013-06-08T14:25:46Z")
> **[Does 911 tape prove George Zimmerman acted in self-defense? Experts claim...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337564/Does-911-tape-prove-George-Zimmerman-acted-self-defense-Experts-claim-HIS-screams--NOT-Trayvon-Martins--dramatic-recording.html)** > > An independent audio expert believes that George Zimmerman is most likely the harrowing voice screaming for help in the crucial 911 call made seconds before Trayvon Martin was shot dead. “Omara sad the seven witnesses he wantred to keep hidden include one witness to the altercation between Zimmerman and Martin the night of February 26, 2012.” Apparently someone actually saw the encounter. Six others just saw and heard parts of it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10628 "2013-06-10T13:38:12Z")
The hearing on the audio experts, which was supposed to take up Thursday, enters its _fourth day_ this morning. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10629 "2013-06-10T15:32:40Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The hearing on the audio experts, which was supposed to take up Thursday, enters its _fourth day_ this morning. AFAIU, from news, there is no hearing on the audio experts today. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10630 "2013-06-10T16:08:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > AFAIU, from news, there is no hearing on the audio experts today. Hmmm. Now I’m unsure. [CBS Miami](http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/06/08/third-day-of-zimmerman-hearing-on-voice-experts/) says there is, but other sources just have it as a hearing on jury selection. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10631 "2013-06-10T16:38:24Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He “won” the race by putting the kid in a wrist lock and then, with the same arm, reached back behind himself and pulled out his gun. Then he aimed the gun and fired it into Martin’s chest. There was no fight in progress when this happened, according to witnesses and according to Zimmerman. Still looking for the cite on this. I can’t find anywhere that, “according to Zimmerman,” Martin was immobilized at the time his weapon was fired. All of his interviews state that he and Martin were struggling when the shot was fired. What your describing in your post is an entirely different scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10632 "2013-06-10T16:52:17Z")
Nonetheless, according to **you with the face** , it could have happened that way, and therefore Zimmerman must be guilty. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10633 "2013-06-10T17:27:54Z")
I predict that Zimmerman will be found not guilty because ultimately, it will not be that hard for a jury of Floridians to find reasonable doubt in a case that has a lot of “we just don’t know” and probably falls into the realm of “he did it but we can’t prove it.” I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit who set out to harass a black guy that night, initiated the confrontation, panicked when his prey didn’t buy his fake-cop routine, and is going to end up killing someone else in the remaining 50 or so years he probably has left to exist on Earth as George Zimmerman with all of his prejudices, impulses, and deficiencies. I think the actual reasons he will be found not guilty have very little to do with his defenders’ insistence that people on the Internet being skeptical of factual claims made by a person charged with murder constitutes a violation of that person’s due process rights. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10634 "2013-06-10T18:04:44Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit who set out to harass a black guy that night, initiated the confrontation, panicked when his prey didn’t buy his fake-cop routine, and is going to end up killing someone else in the remaining 50 or so years he probably has left to exist on Earth as George Zimmerman with all of his prejudices, impulses, and deficiencies. Is this a gut feeling of yours, or is this a reasoned conclusion backed by the evidence? > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > I think the actual reasons he will be found not guilty have very little to do with his defenders’ insistence that people on the Internet being skeptical of factual claims made by a person charged with murder constitutes a violation of that person’s due process rights. The burden of proof being on the prosecution, and their inability to meet that burden with the evidence available, is an actual reason he should be found not guilty, if that’s what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10635 "2013-06-10T18:38:38Z")
[QUOTE=Condescending Robot] I think the actual reasons he will be found not guilty have very little to do with his defenders’ insistence that people on the Internet being skeptical of factual claims made by a person charged with murder constitutes a violation of that person’s due process rights. [/QUOTE] On the Internet? No, none of Zimmerman’s supporters have made such a claim. They have pointed out repeatedly that Zimmerman is entitled to the presumption of innocence in his trial, but that is far from the same thing. Actually it is pretty much just the opposite - I for one have pointed out many times over that it is important to believe only in those parts of Zimmerman’s narrative that are backed up by evidence. Which is in contrast to statements like this - > [@](#): > > I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit who set out to harass a black guy that night, initiated the confrontation, panicked when his prey didn’t buy his fake-cop routine, and is going to end up killing someone else in the remaining 50 or so years he probably has left to exist on Earth as George Zimmerman with all of his prejudices, impulses, and deficiencies. Since there is no evidence of racial animosity on Zimmerman’s part, no conduct that could be considered harassing on Zimmerman’s part, Dee Dee’s testimony and the pattern of Martin’s movements tends to demonstrate that it was Martin who initiated the confrontation by punching Zimmerman in the face, there is no evidence of panicking on Zimmerman’s part until after he was attacked, and that Zimmerman never stated or implied to Martin that he was a cop. Whether or not Zimmerman will kill someone in the future remains to be seen. He seems to have avoided doing so for the first 28 years of his life - perhaps if no one attacks him and bashes his head on the sidewalk, he can start another streak. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10636 "2013-06-10T19:13:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I predict that Zimmerman will be found not guilty because ultimately, it will not be that hard for a jury of Floridians to find reasonable doubt in a case that has a lot of “we just don’t know” and probably falls into the realm of “he did it but we can’t prove it.” > > I think Zimmerman is a piece of shit who set out to harass a black guy that night, initiated the confrontation, panicked when his prey didn’t buy his fake-cop routine, and is going to end up killing someone else in the remaining 50 or so years he probably has left to exist on Earth as George Zimmerman with all of his prejudices, impulses, and deficiencies. > > I think the actual reasons he will be found not guilty have very little to do with his defenders’ insistence that people on the Internet being skeptical of factual claims made by a person charged with murder constitutes a violation of that person’s due process rights. This is not rational conclusion to make based on the evidence. As Shodan has stated, using the evidence at hand his story rings true. It was reasonable to be suspicious of someone he knew was not the owner of the house who was trespassing in the rain at dusk. My neighbors have called the police on people around my house and I have done the same for them. So far I stopped at least 3 burglaries and caught 2 of the people doing it. One was based solely on seeing a kid standing on a street corner. That’s it. I could tell based on his behavior that he was up to no good. It didn’t take much more observation to prove it. He was the lookout for others who were stealing a car. I don’t even begin to know where you get come off referring to Martin as his prey or Zimmerman as a fake-cop. Nothing in the phone conversation to the Dispatcher indicated he attempted to make contact with Martin and the conversation as related by Dee Dee demonstrated nothing of the kind. Martin on the other-hand has been shown to be a kid in trouble. The reason he was even living at that address was because of his school suspension for fighting, theft, and vandalism. His mother felt he needed help and sent him to live with his father. His text messages show him preoccupied with fighting, drugs and guns. His own girlfriend even warned him he was going to end up shot in the chest because of his activities and assumed he was fighting based on the last phone conversation. This was apparently so natural a thing to expect of Martin she didn’t call the police. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10637 "2013-06-10T20:29:21Z")
There is no explanation for believing that Martin was “trespassing” in a manner suggestive of burglary that does not require credulously believing everything Zimmerman said, and there is no explanation whatsoever for why Zimmerman got out of the car in the first place. I’m not particularly interested in re-arguing every point in a thread with ten thousand posts in it, but those are the fundamental facts that show that, in light of all “external evidence,” Zimmerman is, at minimum, an overly aggressive, paranoid asshole who self-appointed himself as the “captain” of a “neighborhood watch” that didn’t exist beyond himself, and had a habit of stalking around his neighborhood with a gun\* looking for shit to start. I don’t particularly buy the arguments that he didn’t commit a murder here, but I see how a reasonable person could; I DON’T find it remotely reasonable to reject the lesser stuff about Zimmerman’s temperament and delusions of being a superhero. \*I am a gun rights/self-defense supporter and I have many posts on this board to back that up. With that said, I find strapping a gun to oneself ONLY when going on patrol for suspiciously dark-skinned people to be outside the spirit of self-defense, and I certainly find shooting a child armed with a can of iced tea to be wildly outside of it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10638 "2013-06-10T20:44:40Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > There is no explanation for believing that Martin was “trespassing” in a manner suggestive of burglary that does not require credulously believing everything Zimmerman said, and there is no explanation whatsoever for why Zimmerman got out of the car in the first place. I’m not particularly interested in re-arguing every point in a thread with ten thousand posts in it, but those are the fundamental facts that show that, in light of all “external evidence,” Zimmerman is, at minimum, an overly aggressive, paranoid asshole who self-appointed himself as the “captain” of a “neighborhood watch” that didn’t exist beyond himself, and had a habit of stalking around his neighborhood with a gun\* looking for shit to start. I don’t particularly buy the arguments that he didn’t commit a murder here, but I see how a reasonable person could; I DON’T find it remotely reasonable to reject the lesser stuff about Zimmerman’s temperament and delusions of being a superhero. Overly aggressive, paranoid asshole or not, he’s not guilty of the crime of second-degree murder, because sufficient evidence doesn’t exist that proves him guilty of the elements of second-degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt. Out of curiosity, what’s so egregious about starting a neighborhood watch, and persisting even if no one else from your small neighborhood joins? > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > \*I am a gun rights/self-defense supporter and I have many posts on this board to back that up. With that said, I find strapping a gun to oneself ONLY when going on patrol for suspiciously dark-skinned people to be outside the spirit of self-defense, and I certainly find shooting a child armed with a can of iced tea to be wildly outside of it. Zimmerman wasn’t on neighborhood watch patrol at the time of the incident, he was driving back from a store. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10639 "2013-06-10T20:51:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Out of curiosity, what’s so egregious about starting a neighborhood watch, and persisting even if no one else from your small neighborhood joins? He used the trademarked name of an organization which prohibits its actual members from pursuing people, confronting them, or carrying guns, falsely represented himself as being authorized to do so, and did this because he was intentionally trying to be dishonest about his actual role of “lone armed racist walking around looking for trouble.” That’s what’s egregious about it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10640 "2013-06-10T20:56:31Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > He used the trademarked name of an organization which prohibits its actual members from pursuing people, confronting them, or carrying guns, falsely represented himself as being authorized to do so Do you need “Neighborhood Watch authorization” to carry a gun, “pursue people”, or confront them? Can you explain which of these activities is illegal or requires being a Neighborhood Watch member (if there is such a membership, I am not sure)? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10641 "2013-06-10T20:57:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > He used the trademarked name of an organization which prohibits its actual members from pursuing people, confronting them, or carrying guns, falsely represented himself as being authorized to do so, and did this because he was intentionally trying to be dishonest about his actual role of “lone armed racist walking around looking for trouble.” That’s what’s egregious about it. Again, though, he wasn’t on patrol for the watch when the incident occured. Nor is there evidence that he confronted Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10642 "2013-06-10T20:57:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA) — the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch — it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon. > **[George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization](https://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/)** > > theGRIO REPORT - George Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=531) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=533)