# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 533
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10643 "2013-06-10T20:58:40Z")
As mentioned earlier, there is no evidence that Zimmerman was racist, he wasn’t walking, he was driving his truck, and he wasn’t looking for trouble, he was going to the grocery store. And he did not falsely represent himself as entitled to carry a gun - he had a license and he was not on patrol - he was, again, on his way to the grocery store. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10644 "2013-06-10T21:45:50Z")
I love the fact that we, yet again, have someone trying to spin looking out for one’s neighbours and neighbourhood as evidence of immoral or illegal intent… Zimmerman’s actions, in calling the police about Martin and trying to keep track of him, were not just legal but laudable. If he _did_ chase him down and confront him - something for which there is precious little evidence - it’s still not illegal, though far more foolish than laudable. I can understand someone thinking, having just heard the original media reports of this case, that it was possibly a racist murder, and probably at minimum manslaughter - both myself and **Magiver** originally felt that way. However, being reasonable people, we were able to keep our minds open and examine the evidence. Evidence that is frustratingly vague, but where it is more conclusive, tends to support Zimmerman’s story. I can’t understand the refusal of some people here to even examine the evidence to see if it fits their preconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10645 "2013-06-10T23:09:03Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > [http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/](http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/) So… Zimmerman violated a rule of an organization he’s not even a member of. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10646 "2013-06-10T23:39:01Z")
Face it - we have been fed so much slanted and false information by the media that it’s nearly impossible to figure out what will happen next. Calling a seventeen-year old high school football player whose hobby is street fighting a _child_ and offering old pictures of him was just the beginning of an effort to ensure that Zimmerman doesn’t get a fair trial. A man who is old enough to father a child is not a child. I’m sure he would have agreed. Young man works just fine unless attempting to argue from emotion. With the events that followed, threats on Zimmerman’s life and thinly veiled insinuations of rioting should the pro-Martin people not be satisfied with the results of the trial it’s a wonder anyone could be found to take the case at all. The judge is refusing to allow the witnesses anonymity so they must be frightened. The case has been so overtly politicized that I don’t see how Mr. Zimmerman has a chance of ever being able to feel safe again whether he is jailed or set free. That’s a travesty of justice in this country. I try to keep up with all the details and found an odd one this week. For those of you who want this to be a racial issue, did you know that George’s great-grandfather from Peru was a black man? I can’t wait until we are eventually so intermarried that we’ll all look like fools for even bringing race into anything. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2013, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10647 "2013-06-10T23:58:35Z")
> [@Mgalindo13](#): > > Still looking for the cite on this. I can’t find anywhere that, “according to Zimmerman,” Martin was immobilized at the time his weapon was fired. All of his interviews state that he and Martin were struggling when the shot was fired. > > What your describing in your post is an entirely different scenario. According to [Osterman](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/09/21/169233/george-zimmermans-friends-book.html#.UbZfBcu9KSM) (who I do believe is a prosecution witness): > [@](#): > > “ **I desperately got both of my hands** around the guy’s one wrist and took his hand off my mouth long enough for me to shout again for help,” Osterman quotes Zimmerman as saying. > > “For a brief moment I had control of the wrist, but I knew when he felt the sidearm at my waist with his leg. \*\*He took his hand that was covering my nose and went for the gun, saying, “You’re gonna die now, motherf-----.’ \*\*Somehow, I broke his grip on the gun where the guy grabbed it between the rear sight and the hammer. I got the gun in my hand, raised it toward the guy’s chest and pulled the trigger.” This is what Zimmerman told Serino during his [post-reenactment intervie](https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025)w: > [@](#): > > Zimmerman: When he…he was mounted on me but he had pressure on my nose and my mouth, suffocating me. And when he let go of my mouth and started reaching down my side, he said, “You’re gonna die tonight.” I didn’t need my hand any more **cause he let go of my mouth.** I don’t remember if I was still screaming or not. **That’s when I grabbed his hand and I grabbed my, my firearm and fired.** So it was one side, he let go, that I realized I didn’t need my hand and he was gonna kill me. > Serino: How long did he suffocate you for? > Zimmerman: (sigh) Felt like… > Serino: Seemed like forever, I’m sure. > Zimmerman: Felt like hours, but I don’t… > Serino: Don’t recall. OK. Is it a full-sized 9 or a small 9? > Zimmerman: Compact. > Serino: Compact? **And you were able to overpower him as far as holding his wrist, you gained wrist…we call it wrist control…you gained wrist control on him basically, and you were able to basically liberate both hands… > Zimmerman: Yes, sir.** > Serino: OK. You raised it up. Do you remember hitting him with the pistol? And in Zimmerman’s [reenacment](http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NwnvPwZMzY4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNwnvPwZMzY4), he of course shows how he pinned Martin’s arm with his own before reaching for his gun. The thing that stands out in all of these stories is that _Zimmerman was successfully able to defend himself against Martin once he actually used his hands and arms like an reasonably intelligent person_. Up until that moment of truth, Zimmerman supposedly did nothing except lie there like a rag doll. His tactical flashlight had traveled with him all the way to where Martin’s body lay, but did he ever indicate using it as a defensive weapon? No. Did he ever say he tried to push the kid away or strike back? No. His hands didn’t have any defensive injuries either (see [here](https://www.google.com/search?q=zimmerman's+hands+pictures&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari#biv=i%7C10%3Bd%7CXwVcp1osqwPzjM%3A)). If he’d been able to gain control of Martin enough to keep him from suffocating him and grabbing his gun, then it was not necessary for him to take things to the next step and shoot him. If he’s deemed to be the aggressor of the conflict, that is especially the case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10648 "2013-06-11T00:17:06Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > If he’d been able to gain control of Martin enough to keep him from suffocating him and grabbing his gun, then it was not necessary for him to take things to the next step and shoot him. If he’s deemed to be the aggressor of the conflict, that is especially the case. Why do you keep saying that? We’ve been through this. Being able to prevent someone strangling you is not the same as being able to escape from the conflict, and, by legal definition, Martin doesn’t stop being a threat until he retreats and clearly communicates that he’s no longer threatening. Or, obviously, until he is so injured or dead he can’t fight - but Zimmerman would not be expected to immediately apprehend that. Simply having someone in a wristlock when they’re on top of you meets none of those criteria. Therefore, if Zimmerman were in reasonable fear of death or serious injury before he got Martin in said wristlock, he was entitled to shoot him afterwards - regardless of whether he started the fight. Interesting that after literally months of telling us that Zimmerman is a lying sack of shit and you have no reason to believe him, you now take him at his word… Still doesn’t prove what you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10649 "2013-06-11T01:52:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Interesting that after literally months of telling us that Zimmerman is a lying sack of shit and you have no reason to believe him, you now take him at his word… Still doesn’t prove what you think it does. Obviously I don’t believe a thing this lying sack has told anyone. But even if we take him at his word, a crime is evident. This is a testament to how bad a liar he is and how guilty he is too. You want to know what’s interesting? For the last few days, the defense has been angling hard to prove the 911 tape is useless in determining who is yelling for help. They have thrown everything they have to keep any expert from weighing in on this at the trial. Which is quite telling. If I were innocent, and there was no question in my mind that frantic voice was mine, there is no way in hell I’d want anyone saying that the tape is useless. I’d be wanting every juror and their mama listening to that thing so that I could convince them it was me, and I’d be searching the world over for a credentialed somebody willing to exclude Martin as the source, even if their confidence was below 50%. The only reason Zimmerman is trying to attack analysis of the 911 tape is because he knows it’s not him and he knows he can’t find anyone willing to say it was him. Because if he could find someone, the defense wouldn’t hesitate to put them on the stand. The only folks on the planet who can’t grasp this are Zimmerman’s blind supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10650 "2013-06-11T01:58:40Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > and I’d be searching the world over for a credentialed somebody willing to exclude Martin as the source, even if their confidence was below 50%. > **[Does 911 tape prove George Zimmerman acted in self-defense? Experts claim...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337564/Does-911-tape-prove-George-Zimmerman-acted-self-defense-Experts-claim-HIS-screams--NOT-Trayvon-Martins--dramatic-recording.html)** > > An independent audio expert believes that George Zimmerman is most likely the harrowing voice screaming for help in the crucial 911 call made seconds before Trayvon Martin was shot dead. ABC News exclusively obtained a sample of the distressing emergency call - which could prove pivotal once the trial of 29-year-old Zimmerman begins - and sent it to Kent Gibson of Forensic Audio In his expert opinion, a comparison of Martin’s voice, Zimmerman’s voice and the screaming on the 911 call indicate that the voice is ‘more likely to be Zimmerman than Martin by a significant margin.’ ABC News explained they were able to finally make their startling but qualified judgement on the identity of the voice after they exclusively obtained a recording of Trayvon Martin’s voice. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10651 "2013-06-11T02:33:40Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Calling a seventeen-year old high school football player whose hobby is street fighting a _child_ and offering old pictures of him was just the beginning of an effort to ensure that Zimmerman doesn’t get a fair trial. The same legal niceties that ensure that Zimmerman will get a fair trial and will probably be found not guilty define seventeen-year-olds as children. Take or leave the legalistic posturing; it’s been relied upon by your side to an extensive degree in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10652 "2013-06-11T02:44:58Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > **…it has been revealed that Zimmerman WAS NOT a member of any group recognized by the organization…** > > [http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/](http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/) Apparently GZ was not a member of a national neighborhood watch. Do you believe that the prosecutor will introduce this earth shattering evidence to the court? What effect do you think this info will have on the jury? :yawn: ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10653 "2013-06-11T02:48:24Z")
If he doesn’t testify, probably not much. If he does, the fact that he constructed an elaborate fantasy world bears on his credibility, at a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10654 "2013-06-11T02:52:02Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > If he doesn’t testify, probably not much. If he does, the fact that he constructed an elaborate fantasy world bears on his credibility, at a minimum. > **[George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization](https://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/)** > > theGRIO REPORT - George Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon... But registration with the USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch Program — which would have provided this training — is not a requirement for forming a group. “ **We’ve got approximately 25,000 neighborhood watches registered now, and the neighborhood watches out there far exceed that number** ,” Chris Tutko, the Director of Neighborhood Watch for the National Sheriffs’ Association told theGrio. So - what “fantasy world” are you talking about? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10655 "2013-06-11T02:59:58Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > …\*I am a gun rights/self-defense supporter and I have many posts on this board to back that up. With that said, I find strapping a gun to oneself ONLY when going on patrol for suspiciously dark-skinned people to be outside the spirit of self-defense, and I certainly find shooting a child armed with a can of **ICED TEA** to be wildly outside of it. Who had “iced tea”? I’m not aware of any evidence that anyone had “iced tea”. If people have difficulty getting the simple facts straight, what chance is there that they’ll get the complicated issues correct? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10656 "2013-06-11T03:08:45Z")
Are you referring to: 1. the insignificant fact that the Arizona beverage he purchased was watermelon drink and not iced tea, which is obviously irrelevant to the level of threat a soft drink can posed, and is ignoring the obvious practice of referring to the dozens of different identically-packaged products made by the Arizona company as “iced teas” given that it is their flagship product 2. the race-baiting element of continually bringing up the fact that it was specifically watermelon-flavored 3. the insane conspiracy theory that the Skittles and the beverage were being used to create some mysterious drink called “lean,” which, through the magic of believing in things that there is no evidence for, traveled back in time and made Martin dangerously high before he ever had a chance to manufacture or consume it 4. some combination of the above, or, 5. some other, equally stupid thing? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10657 "2013-06-11T03:12:08Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > If he doesn’t testify, probably not much. If he does, the fact that he constructed an elaborate fantasy world bears on his credibility, at a minimum. The Retreat at Twin Oaks had a neighborhood watch program and GZ was a member of it. That’s a fact. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10658 "2013-06-11T03:28:42Z")
I see evidence that Zimmerman was trying to START a renegade Neighborhood Watch program (which, if it taught running after people with guns and assuming all blacks are burglars, would by necessity operate outside the sanction of the national organization): [http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/NWP-Binder-1.pdf](http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/NWP-Binder-1.pdf) I do not see any evidence that this program he started succeeded in including any people besides himself, or that his title of “captain” was granted by any person or body external to himself. Do you have some that you would like to share? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10659 "2013-06-11T03:32:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > I see evidence that Zimmerman was trying to START a renegade Neighborhood Watch program What makes a Neighborhood Watch program “renegade”? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10660 "2013-06-11T03:44:37Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Are you referring to: … I’m referring to the fact that you can’t get the simple facts correct. They’re obviously not important to you. That casts doubt on your speculations of the rest of the evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10661 "2013-06-11T03:52:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What makes a Neighborhood Watch program “renegade”? The dead body of a teenager might be at the top of that list. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/10662 "2013-06-11T03:53:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [Does 911 tape prove George Zimmerman acted in self-defense? Experts claim they are HIS screams - NOT Trayvon Martin's - on dramatic recording | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2337564/Does-911-tape-prove-George-Zimmerman-acted-self-defense-Experts-claim-HIS-screams--NOT-Trayvon-Martins--dramatic-recording.html) > > ABC News exclusively obtained a sample of the distressing emergency call - which could prove pivotal once the trial of 29-year-old Zimmerman begins - and sent it to Kent Gibson of Forensic Audio > > In his expert opinion, a comparison of Martin’s voice, Zimmerman’s voice and the screaming on the 911 call indicate that the voice is ‘more likely to be Zimmerman than Martin by a significant margin.’ > > ABC News explained they were able to finally make their startling but qualified judgement on the identity of the voice after they exclusively obtained a recording of Trayvon Martin’s voice. Call me when this guy’s opinion gets entered into discovery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=532) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=534)