# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 552
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11023 "2013-06-19T03:59:39Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Wow, that’s incredible. It’s even more incredible that in a country where there ought to be freedom of speech, you have these lawyer clowns saying what words can or cannot be said in a courtroom. You don’t have freedom of speech in a courtroom. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11024 "2013-06-19T04:08:43Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > More. His delusions of holding a nonexistent position of authority are directly related to his inability to correctly perceive the threat posted by Martin both at the beginning of the encounter and at any time that he had to make a reasonable man’s evaluation of whether his own life was in danger. See, **Honesty**? It is a prejudicial term. It’s convinced **Condescending Robot** that Zimmerman was: 1. Delusional 2. Lying or mistaken about Martin’s behavior 3. Lying or mistaken about being in reasonable fear of losing his life or suffering great bodily harm from Martin All that, with no evidence to support any of it. That’s a powerful term, as I’m sure you’ll agree. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11025 "2013-06-19T04:12:13Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > More. His delusions of holding a nonexistent position of authority are directly related to his inability to correctly perceive the threat posted by Martin both at the beginning of the encounter and at any time that he had to make a reasonable man’s evaluation of whether his own life was in danger. So, what level of threat should he have perceived when Martin was punching him and bashing his head against the ground, whilst pinning him down? _That’s_ when the level of threat matters, not earlier. Also, it doesn’t matter whether he was, in fact, reasonable when he made the determination - just whether a reasonable person could have made the same determination. Which, of course, they could have, in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11026 "2013-06-19T04:15:51Z")
Why should I believe that Martin was doing any of those things when the source is a man who went around telling people that he held a rank he gave himself in an organization that doesn’t exist? This is why it’s relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11027 "2013-06-19T04:29:07Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Why should I believe that Martin was doing any of those things when the source is a man who went around telling people that he held a rank he gave himself in an organization that doesn’t exist? This is why it’s relevant. Hasn’t this been well covered? You should believe it, or at least consider it reasonable, because Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded, his back wet and grass stained, while Martin had only a scrape on his knuckle and grass stains on his knees. And because a witness saw Martin atop Zimmerman, fighting. For the umpteenth time, Zimmerman’s mouth isn’t the only source of evidence; on the contrary, it’s probably the worst source. Please face this reality. ETA: Also, disbelieving the defendant isn’t sufficient for conviction unless it’s based on evidence. Disbelieving Zimmerman’s story because he’s delusional or what have you doesn’t permit the jury to assume that the opposite of his statements must have occurred. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11028 "2013-06-19T05:26:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > … Zimmerman’s … back … grass stained … Not directing this at you necessarily, This claim just came up on another message board and a poster posted pics of; Z’s jacket, Z’s shirt, Z’s pants Z’s shoe heels, there wasn’t a single grass stain to be seen, so anyone want to post a link that shows these “grass stains”? > [@Human\_Action](#): > > … while Martin had … grass stains on his knees. … I can’t wait 'til we get to the forensic evidence in this case! “No, I can’t tell you how those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants”, “No, I can’t tell you when those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants” Lots of folks gonna be real stunned to learn that “consistent with” is the highest level of scientific certainty that most physical evidence can ever rise to. Think arguing the law was an exercise in frustration?! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11029 "2013-06-19T06:07:02Z")
It’s easy to assert that there’s all sorts of evidence outside of known delusional liar Zimmerman’s testimony when you just make up what that evidence is. Do you expect people to stop doing that? It’s been sixteen months so far and no end in sight. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11030 "2013-06-19T06:35:45Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They do not have to disprove self defence _apart_ from proving the defendant committed a crime. While unfortunate that it took so long, the fact that you arrived at all is to be lauded. Congratulations. > [@Honesty](#): > > I can let “wannabe cop” (a little) and even “profiling” slide (barely). But to ban “Self-appointed Neighborhood Watch captain” is ridiculous because that’s exactly what Zimmerman was. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > His delusions of holding a nonexistent position of authority are directly related to his inability to correctly perceive the threat posted by Martin both at the beginning of the encounter and at any time that he had to make a reasonable man’s evaluation of whether his own life was in danger. > [@Human\_Action](#): > > See, **Honesty**? It is a prejudicial term. It’s convinced **Condescending Robot** that Zimmerman was: > > 1. Delusional > 2. Lying or mistaken about Martin’s behavior > 3. Lying or mistaken about being in reasonable fear of losing his life or suffering great bodily harm from Martin > > All that, with no evidence to support any of it. That’s a powerful term, as I’m sure you’ll agree. Come now, I’m sure you know perfectly well that the perception C. Robot holds was not formed on the basis of the term. Be fair. > [@Steophan](#): > > So, what level of threat should he have perceived when Martin was punching him and bashing his head against the ground, whilst pinning him down? Assuming those things are true. The fact that some people saw them on the ground, struggling, does not prove that he was “pinned” “punched” and having his head “bashed against the ground”. (Again, I’m not 100% up to date, but to my knowledge no witnesses have reported seeing any of those things. Just two guys on the ground struggling, the smaller on top of the larger. Pretty limited.) > [@](#): > > _That’s_ when the level of threat matters, not earlier. Also, it doesn’t matter whether he was, in fact, reasonable when he made the determination - just whether a reasonable person could have made the same determination. Which, of course, they could have, in this case. Huh? > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Why should I believe that Martin was doing any of those things when the source is a man who went around telling people that he held a rank he gave himself in an organization that doesn’t exist? This is why it’s relevant. +1 > [@Human\_Action](#): > > Hasn’t this been well covered? You should believe it, or at least consider it reasonable, because Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded, lightly, and could have happened any number of ways, as I earlier noted. > [@](#): > > his back wet Hardly proof of punching and bashing. > [@](#): > > and grass stained, Again, unless some other information has come to light, this is incorrect and the incorrectness very definitely makes a difference. He had some grass clinging to his backside. One only gets grass\* stains\* if one comes into contact with the grass so forcefully that the blades of grass are broken and torn, releasing the green pigmented chlorophyll that causes the stain. The fact that there was only some blades of grass, and NOT grass stains, actually weakens the story that he was being pinned, beaten and bashed. It’s hard to imagine that much violence without tearing up a little grass juice. > [@](#): > > For the umpteenth time, Zimmerman’s mouth isn’t the only source of evidence; on the contrary, it’s probably the worst source. Please face this reality. Disagree. Take everything he said away, as I suggested earlier. Including the 911 call he made, because he could have been distorting and spinning information in it. Confine yourself to everything else: Zimmerman is mute. Then tell me how crystal clear it all is. > [@](#): > > ETA: Also, disbelieving the defendant isn’t sufficient for conviction unless it’s based on evidence. Disbelieving Zimmerman’s story because he’s delusional or what have you doesn’t permit the jury to assume that the opposite of his statements must have occurred. What would the “opposite” be? Doesn’t matter, I could explain everything without supporting Zimmerman, and that’s what I would expect the prosecution to do. But unless his defense counsel is/are damned fools without a clue, especially about how to pick jurors, since that’s kinda the whole ball game in this thing, he’ll be acquitted. But one can hope that he is suffering and suffers a great deal more by having to go through it, if nothing else. (Yes, I’m with the prosecution, in case anyone didn’t know: I’m calling it 2nd degree, and I absolutely believe that one way or another, he scared the shit out of that kid, which triggered a series of events leading to his being thrilled to have an excuse to pull out his gun and play lawman. I also firmly believe that he regrets the hell out of it now, and maybe even regretted it as soon as he did it. But he was foolish and dangerous and looking for trouble, and he found it. Also, I dont’ think he’s a racist looking to off a black person, but I do think he made certain assumptions that he would not have if Martin were white or Asian or perhaps even hispanic.) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11031 "2013-06-19T06:37:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It’s easy to assert that there’s all sorts of evidence outside of known delusional liar Zimmerman’s testimony when you just make up what that evidence is. Do you expect people to stop doing that? It’s been sixteen months so far and no end in sight. Yeah, it is kind of amazing that people continue to spin everything so much. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11032 "2013-06-19T06:45:30Z")
I just looked at the original police report (grass stains) and I would like to add that my “LIAR! LIAR LIAR!” alarm goes off when I read that Zimmerman was telling the medical peeps that he was yelling for help. I doubt they asked, and it’s Bust The Liar 101 that liars talk to much and tend to supply too much information. Although it’s understandable. If it was Martin yelling for help (and it was, absolutely…listen to it… shiver), and I were Zimmerman, I’d probably do the same. Make sure his lie gets in there first. Poor George. Poor Trayvon. Sigh… ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11033 "2013-06-19T07:04:10Z")
If convicted maybe Zimmerman should be sentenced to reading this thread in it’s entirety. Learned counselors, would this constitute cruel and unusual punishment? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11034 "2013-06-19T07:05:34Z")
So you know it was, absolutely, Martin screaming based on what, exactly? There’s no actual evidence that it was him, and no evidence he was in a position where he would be expected to be screaming for help. So, who’s distorting and spinning the facts now? Also, have you conceded that the prosecution have to specifically disprove self defence if they are to prove Zimmerman guilty of _anything_ yet? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11035 "2013-06-19T08:08:10Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you know it was, absolutely, Martin screaming based on what, exactly? There’s no actual evidence that it was him, and no evidence he was in a position where he would be expected to be screaming for help. Every single thing about the screams tells me it was Trayvon Martin, And absolutely nothing about it suggests that it might have been George Zimmerman. There is nothing _remotely_ believable about Zimmerman being punched, having his head bashed into the ground, reaching for his gun and pulling it out, pointing it at Martin and pulling the trigger, all while screaming virtually non-stop. Really? His head being bashed and punched so badly that his only chance to stay alive is to kill this boy, but never quite so badly that his screaming is interrupted? And the quality in the voice is chilling, it sounds exactly like a kid looking at his death and absolutely desperate to get help to stop it, which is what I am certain he was doing. I think Zimmerman Had his gun out already, before they went down to the ground, and that is why they went down: Martin was trying to stop him from using it. > [@](#): > > So, who’s distorting and spinning the facts now? Far too many people, but none of them are me. In this particular instance my remark was parenthetical, following the words “IF it was Martin screaming…” Most proficient readers of English understand this to mean that the parenthetical remark is my opinion. . ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11036 "2013-06-19T08:19:37Z")
Oh, and While everyone debates what likely happened, I think it’s interesting that no one seems to question for a moment The likelihood that Zimmermans head wound proves Zimmermans story about having his head bashed into the ground: his head was on the grass. And from the description not even at the edge of the grass where the sprinklers might be found. How did the soft wet ground cause his head to be cut and bleeding? Which leads me to another issue I have always had, that being Zimmermans description of exactly who was where and when, When compared with the position that Trayvon’s body was in when the police saw it. But of course I realize all of that is far too nuanced to bother thinking about too much… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11037 "2013-06-19T09:25:49Z")
Martin was still alive when the police arrived, they didn’t find his body. Your confidence in your pronouncements is astounding, given your lack of knowledge of either the law or the facts of the case. For example, none of your arguments give you any reason to believe it was Martin screaming. It may have been, but you need actual evidence of that, and all you have is unfounded speculation. Since we have evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life, and none that Martin was, it’s beyond foolish to say that proves _Martin_ was screaming. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11038 "2013-06-19T10:09:45Z")
Great law blog,lots of great analysis and comment about this case: Frederick leatherman, former law professor, and former felony criminal defense attorney in state and federal courts specializing in death penalty defense, forensics, and complex litigation LOVE this one: [Bandar Slot Indonesia Terpercaya](http://frederickleatherman.com/2013/06/04/hln-falsely-portrays-shooting-reenactment/) > [@](#): > > Mere gravity does not account for this displacement. > > I will tell you what does, however. The defendant had a grip on the sweatshirt and shirt with his left hand restraining Trayvon from getting away as he took careful aim and fired. > > Not coincidentally, this also explains why the defendant said he “aimed” before he squeezed off the fatal shot in order to avoid shooting his left hand. > > Politano’s clueless expert reenacted the shooting by holding his fake red gun with both hands, which is contrary to the defendant’s narrative. > > Finally, we know the defendant was on top because W18 witnessed the shooting and said he was on top. > > Clean heels with wet grass and mud on the toes of the defendant’s boots are not consistent with the defendant’s claim that he shimmied in an atttempt to get out from under Trayvon. > > The back of the defendant’s jacket was wet because it was raining, not because he was lying on his back in the grass. A photograph of the back of his jacket taken at the police station did not show any mud or grass present. > > Two conclusions can be reached from the evidence. The defendant lied and he was not in imminent danger of death or serious injury when he fired the fatal shot. In fact, he was in control of Trayvon when he killed him. > > That is not self-defense. > > It is second degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11039 "2013-06-19T11:27:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Martin was still alive when the police arrived, they didn’t find his body. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Since we have evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life, and none that Martin was, it’s beyond foolish to say that proves _Martin_ was screaming We have evidence. The very dangerous leap you continue to make is to to assert that we have evidence OF this or that, As though the evidence that we have is conclusive proof of only one possible thing. Sometimes evidence is conclusive proof of only one thing, but certainly not in this case. You say we have evidence that Zimmerman was in fear for his life. I cannot think of one bit of evidence which even suggests such a thing to me, especially in the context of the whole, much less any evidence which proves it to the exclusion of any other possibility. The only evidence that I can think of for George Zimmerman fearing for his life is George Zimmerman’s claim that it is so. Having watched the reenactment video, along with doing a great deal of reading this evening to catch up, I now know how much lying George Zimmerman has done. The man is a liar, his story is ridiculous, So anything he says can only be taken with a cup or two of salt. Any other evidence you point to and claim as proof that George Zimmerman feared for his life fails in my eyes and the eyes of many others. To the extent that we have evidence of an altercation between the men, that is not evidence of George Zimmerman fearing for his life, unless you believe that all fights leave all participants in fear for their lives. I don’t. I think it would be wise for you to temper your assertions about what we have evidence for and of, and instead present your arguments as: there is this fact (i.e. Zimmerman has a wound on his head) which I believe is strong evidence in support of [the thing you think the fact proves]. Like so: We have audio recordings from 911 In which we hear a human being screaming desperately in the background for help. Then we hear a shot. That scream is cut off abruptly when the shot is heard. And of course, Trayvon Martin is dead, by George Zimmerman’s hand. I view this as excellent evidence proving that Trayvon Martin was in _terror_ for his life, and rightly so, and that it is _his_ voice silenced by a bullet through his lungs. And I believe that because it is logical. George Zimmerman screaming continuously for help while he “aims” - Zimmerman’s own word - then shoots Martin in the chest is _not_ logical, or believable. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11040 "2013-06-19T11:32:19Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Not directing this at you necessarily, > > This claim just came up on another message board and a poster posted pics of; > Z’s jacket, > Z’s shirt, > Z’s pants > Z’s shoe heels, > there wasn’t a single grass stain to be seen, so anyone want to post a link that shows these “grass stains”? “Grass stains” = blades of grass, torn free. My mistake, that was sloppy. Which set of pictures? If it’s from the police station, there’s no reason to expect the grass to still be there. If it’s from the scene, I haven’t seen any pictures that show Zimmerman’s back. I’m basing this claim on the police [report](http://www.scribd.com/doc/86948628/Trayvon-Martin-Police-Report). Officer Timothy Smith, who arrived first after the shooting, writes: > [@](#): > > While I was in such close contact with Zimmerman, I could observe that his back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been lying on his back on the ground. Any reason to think Smith was lying or mistaken? If so, I haven’t heard it. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I can’t wait 'til we get to the forensic evidence in this case! > “No, I can’t tell you how those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants”, > “No, I can’t tell you when those grass stains came to be on Mr. Martin’s pants” > Lots of folks gonna be real stunned to learn that “consistent with” is the highest level of scientific certainty that most physical evidence can ever rise to. > > Think arguing the law was an exercise in frustration?! > > CMC fnord! That’s fine for the defense, all they need is a reasonable doubt, not certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11041 "2013-06-19T11:35:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It’s easy to assert that there’s all sorts of evidence outside of known delusional liar Zimmerman’s testimony when you just make up what that evidence is. Do you expect people to stop doing that? It’s been sixteen months so far and no end in sight. Which of these: - Zimmerman’s face and head were wounded - His back was wet and “covered with grass” - Martin had a scrape on his knuckle - Martin was seen atop Zimmerman, fighting with him Is made up, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11042 "2013-06-19T12:11:17Z")
I can’t deny that I find it very satisfying to learn that a former law professor specializing in forensics thinks just like I do… > **[Bandar Slot Indonesia Terpercaya](https://frederickleatherman.com)** > > Cara Menang game slot online dengan berbagai cara atau kumpulan artikel terbaik yang kami sediakan. Pretty much what I said a year ago: > [@](#): > > FINDINGS OF FACT > > 1. the defendant created the situation that ended with Trayvon’s death; > > 2. the defendant never told Trayvon who he was or that he was a neighborhood watch person, despite at least two opportunities to do so as noted by Investigator Chris Serino in his capias request; > > 3. Trayvon was a guest staying at Brandi Green’s residence and had a right to be where he was at all times relevant to this tragedy; > > 4. the defendant believed Trayvon was “up to no good” even though Trayvon was not engaged in any suspicious activity; > > 5. The defendant followed Trayvon first in his vehicle and then on foot with the intent of preventing him from escaping from the neighborhood as other “fucking coons” (or fucking punks, if you prefer) and “assholes” had done in the past. > > 6. The defendant was the aggressor and had no legal basis or reason to touch, much less use any force against Trayvon to restrain or detain him for any purpose; > > 7. Trayvon would have been justified in using reasonably necessary force to stand his ground and prevent the use of force against him, including using deadly force since deadly force was used against him. > > 8. There is no credible evidence that Trayvon ever struck or injured the defendant, but if he did, his use of force was lawful and justified in self-defense. > > 9. The defendant’s injuries were minor and he was never in imminent danger of death or suffering serious injury. > > CONCLUSIONS OF LAW > > 1. The defendant was the aggressor at all times relevant to this confrontation and his use of force was unlawful. > > 2. The defendant’s aggressive course of conduct and his use of deadly force by shooting Trayvon Martin in the heart without lawful justification was an act “imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life.” > > 3. The defendant committed the crime of Murder in the Second degree. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=551) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=553)