# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 559
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11163 "2013-06-25T17:30:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Why would a voice expert say that? Presumably a voice expert would say that because, in their professional opinions, it represented an accurate statement with respect to the comparison of screaming and speaking voices. Happy to explain this conclusion, but I must say it seems kind of an obvious one. Were you more interested to learn if any experts had in fact said that comparing screaming to a normal voice was problematic? That question, if you were asking it, has been answered twice over, above. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11164 "2013-06-25T17:31:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Do you think a jury could be convinced a mother \*never \*heard her son scream in 17 years? And further weakening her testimony is Martin’s father, who will have to acknowledge that he heard the screams and told police it was definitely not his son screaming. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11165 "2013-06-25T18:11:32Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And further weakening her testimony is Martin’s father, who will have to acknowledge that he heard the screams and told police it was definitely not his son screaming. I never found his denial very convincing. A whispered “no,” only, what, days or hours after his son’s shooting? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11166 "2013-06-25T18:17:52Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > I never found his denial very convincing. A whispered “no,” only, what, days or hours after his son’s shooting? The jury may well agree with you. I’m not sure, though, how they will choose between believing Zimmerman’s parents and sibling who swear the voice is Zimmerman’s, and Martin’s mother who swears the voice is Martin’s. It’s in the face of that balance that I’m wondering if the scales might be tipped by Martin’s father’s initial denial. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11167 "2013-06-25T18:25:14Z")
Or maybe it will be tipped by the natural question “why the hell would somebody who is winning the fight be screaming for help? Wouldn’t it be more likely to be the guy getting the piss beat out of him?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11168 "2013-06-25T18:53:17Z")
Of course, the fact that the physical evidence shows that, whatever happened, it _could not_ have been Zimmerman getting the piss beat out of him\* in the way Zimmerman claims it was\*, is what the prosecution seems to be focusing on. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11169 "2013-06-25T19:15:31Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Or maybe it will be tipped by the natural question "why the hell would somebody who is winning the fight be screaming for help? Oh I don’t know, because he had a gun jammed in his chest? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11170 "2013-06-25T20:03:15Z")
Yegads, I’m so behind on so many replies. Y’all wear a gal out. But I thought I’d point out (and I think I can scrounge some good links) that there are really huge flaws in Zimmerman’s account of the crucial seconds and minutes of the struggle and shooting. Top of the list being the pretty much impossible description of when and how the gun came out. There are videos showing exactly how impossible it would have been, starting with Martin’s legs on either side of Zimmerman blocking GZ from the (weird and unbelievable move) he claims to have made to reach it. The point being this: contrary to Zimmerman’s account, the truth is that the gun was _already in his hand_, which is the fact which precipitated the struggle in the first place, and what made Martin scream like hell for his life: he was trying to get the gun away from GZ. Courtroom success aside, if that is the real fact of what occurred, and to many of us it makes a thousand times more sense of the evidence than Zimmerman’s story, then that is second degree murder. I’ll find some good links… be back. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11171 "2013-06-25T20:13:44Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yegads, I’m so behind on so many replies. Y’all wear a gal out. > > But I thought I’d point out (and I think I can scrounge some good links) that there are really huge flaws in Zimmerman’s account of the crucial seconds and minutes of the struggle and shooting. Top of the list being the pretty much impossible description of when and how the gun came out. There are videos showing exactly how impossible it would have been, starting with Martin’s legs on either side of Zimmerman blocking GZ from the (weird and unbelievable move) he claims to have made to reach it. > > The point being this: contrary to Zimmerman’s account, the truth is that the gun was _already in his hand_, which is the fact which precipitated the struggle in the first place, and what made Martin scream like hell for his life: he was trying to get the gun away from GZ. > > Courtroom success aside, if that is the real fact of what occurred, and to many of us it makes a thousand times more sense of the evidence than Zimmerman’s story, then that is second degree murder. > > I’ll find some good links… be back. If that’s the case, why did Martin remain on top of Zimmerman, and why did Zimmerman wait a few minutes before shooting him? Your theory is hardly short of holes - and that’s ignoring the claims made by people with similar holsters that they would be able to draw, if they could turn slightly to the side. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11172 "2013-06-25T20:14:18Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Oh I don’t know, because he had a gun jammed in his chest? Then, as has been asked before, how did Martin manage to blacken Zimmerman’s eyes, break his nose, knock him down, sit on top of him and bash his head against the ground, without Zimmerman firing a shot until Martin was done? > [@](#): > > The point being this: contrary to Zimmerman’s account, the truth is that the gun was already in his hand, which is the fact which precipitated the struggle in the first place, and what made Martin scream like hell for his life: he was trying to get the gun away from GZ. Then it appears that Zimmerman showed remarkable self-restraint, in that he allowed Martin to beat him extensively before firing a single shot. And that Martin is either mentally ill, stupid, or some combination of the two. He ran away from someone who he did not see was armed, and then, as soon as he saw that Zimmerman was armed, attacked him. Uh-huh - _that’s_ likely. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11173 "2013-06-25T20:30:38Z")
About as likely as someone having their head slammed into concrete repeatedly and not suffering any contusions, or being punched in the face by someone who had no scrapes on his knuckles and no blood on his hands afterwards. The idea that this happened the way Zimmerman claims requires living in a fantasy universe, so why not indulge in fantasies about human behavior? They’re more plausible than fantasies about physics. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11174 "2013-06-25T20:38:04Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > About as likely as someone having their head slammed into concrete repeatedly and not suffering any contusions, or being punched in the face by someone who had no scrapes on his knuckles and no blood on his hands afterwards. Is it true that GZ has no contusions and that Martin had no scrapes on his knuckles? I thought I had read that GZ has swollen red welts on the back of his head and that the Martin autopsy showed him with a cut up knuckle. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11175 "2013-06-25T20:40:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > About as likely as someone having their head slammed into concrete repeatedly and not suffering any contusions, or being punched in the face by someone who had no scrapes on his knuckles and no blood on his hands afterwards. Since Zimmerman did, in fact, suffer contusions to his head, and Martin did, in fact, have scrapes on his knuckles from punching Zimmerman in the nose, then AFAICT you are correct - it is not at all likely that Zimmerman approached Martin with his gun in hand. It isn’t even a case of reasonable doubt remaining - there is no evidence in favor of this, and some against it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11176 "2013-06-25T20:54:23Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > About as likely as someone having their head slammed into concrete repeatedly and not suffering any contusions, or being punched in the face by someone who had no scrapes on his knuckles and no blood on his hands afterwards. > > The idea that this happened the way Zimmerman claims requires living in a fantasy universe, so why not indulge in fantasies about human behavior? They’re more plausible than fantasies about physics. So the medical examiner who examined Zimmerman is lying, as is the coroner who examined Martin? And all the photos of Zimmerman’s injuries are faked? Those who think Zimmerman might be telling the truth are not the ones in a fantasy land. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11177 "2013-06-25T21:06:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > About as likely as someone having their head slammed into concrete repeatedly and not suffering any contusions, or being punched in the face by someone who had no scrapes on his knuckles and no blood on his hands afterwards. > > The idea that this happened the way Zimmerman claims requires living in a fantasy universe, so why not indulge in fantasies about human behavior? They’re more plausible than fantasies about physics. M. Night Shyamalan presents . . . the first remake of a M. Night Shyamalan . . . George Zimmerman IS _Unbreakable_. Head slammed into concrete repeatedly until he though he was going to lose consciousness . . . nah I don’t think I need to get what should have been at least a concussion and probable skull fractures and/or (my favorite MASH diagnosis) subdural hematoma(s) checked out at the hospital. Hand(s) covering his mouth with the intent of choking him to his death . . . nah I don’t want to bite him . . . that’s too icky. How did Martin manage to blacken Zimmerman’s eyes, break his nose, knock him down, sit on top of him and bash his head against the ground, AND not get a single injury consistent with Zimmerman doing anything to fight back? 'Cause it sure ain’t possible that a single punch to the nose that knocks one flat could cause the set of injuries Zimmerman had! This trial is aching for a patented Dr. Henry Lee jury demo, with a real fresh human skull wrapped with pig skin (and something to make blood spatters . . . this is Henry Lee!). This is what happens to soft tissue when you bash a skull against a concrete sidewalk, crushing damage not minor lacerations. This is what happens to bone, it fractures. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11178 "2013-06-25T21:07:30Z")
Zimmerman had _cuts_ to his head consistent with\* something\* happening, but nowhere near the level of trauma that would occur if he had been bashed repeatedly into the sidewalk. Martin had _scrapes_ on his knuckles, again a sign that _some sort of_ fight occurred, but not consistent at all with Zimmerman’s description–he should have had huge gashes in his skin and blood on his hands. There is a lot of middle ground between “Zimmerman walked up to Martin and shot him without anything else occurring” and “Zimmerman was being beaten to death in the way he said” and the evidence is pointing us towards that middle. The fact that Zimmerman has felt the need to lie about it is pointing me towards the needle landing on the wrong side of justification for him. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11179 "2013-06-25T21:58:43Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And all the photos of Zimmerman’s injuries are faked? The photos are real, it’s the injuries that were faked. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11180 "2013-06-25T22:07:39Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The photos are real, it’s the injuries that were faked. Huh. I assume you have evidence from the make-up artist that did it to support that statement, as that’s some Hollywood quality faking there. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11181 "2013-06-25T22:26:29Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The photos are real, it’s the injuries that were faked. Forgive me for now having followed the full back-and-forth here. What is the evidence that his injuries are faked? And by faked, do you mean real injuries that he inflicted on himself? Or, like, stage make-up? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11182 "2013-06-25T22:38:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If that’s the case, why did Martin remain on top of Zimmerman, and why did Zimmerman wait a few minutes before shooting him? Your theory is hardly short of holes - and that’s ignoring the claims made by people with similar holsters that they would be able to draw, if they could turn slightly to the side. I don’t really understand your question. If _what_ is the case? Why would Martin _not_ remain on top of him if he were struggling to get the gun? And I don’t even know what you mean by “wait a few minutes”… Imagine the scene this way: the two men encounter each other, (likely at the “T” in the walk). An exchange ensues verbally with Martin being frightened and defensive, and Zimmerman being pushy and controlling. Martin: “Why are you following me?” Zimmerman “why are you skulking around?” Martin “I’m not doing anything wrong, man fuck this shit… Leave me the fuck alone…” Martin starts to turn away to head to his father’s. Zimmerman pulls out his gun. Zimmerman: “stay where you are…” (Perhaps he reaches for Martin’s jacket or something to stop his movement) Martin turns to shake him off “what the fuck?” Sees the gun, begins to struggle, throws a punch, etc. The time problems and the positioning problems are all accounted for by a struggle in which Zimmerman is far more of a dick than he has admitted to, and which explain far more logically any aggressive behavior from Martin. Zimmerman would have us believe that he was innocently walking around looking for Martin, who inexplicably laid in wait, then leapt out and attacked him viciously for no good reason. That makes _zero_ sense. What _does_ make perfect sense is that Zimmerman was being a stupid wannebe cop, handled himself very poorly, doing everything wrong and directly leading to a completely innocent young man’s death. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=558) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=560)