# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 565
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11283 "2013-06-27T13:26:42Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In _general_, I think all-female jury will be biased against Zimmerman because they’d be able to compare the situation with their children and grandchildren. I think an all-female jury would be more likely to empathize with Trayvon walking to get a treat for his brother, more so than an all-male jury would. Ok, so in your view, the all-female jury is, if anything, favorable to Martin. I think it’s probably a wash, myself, but YMMV. > [@Honesty](#): > > However, in this case, we don’t just have an all-female jury, we basically have jury that’s 80% white. So that dents it a bit, because white people have a tendency to be biased against black people. > Eh, I’m not that good at statistics or math. I don’t now how to figure out the probability with more than one variable. If you’re good at stats, let’s give it a whirl, I think the results would be interesting. I’m not, actually, but I can look at [these numbers:](http://www.seminolecountyfl.gov/gm/ecodev/pdf/Demographic_Detail_Report.pdf) Seminole County: 82.8%, 9.4% black, 15.6% Hispanic Zimmerman Jury: 83% white, 17% Hispanic And not see anything out of the ordinary. By my crude mathematical skills, the odds of having one black juror by chance out of six are right around 50/50 (9% chance, six iterations), so not having one doesn’t raise my eyebrows at all. (This is, of course, complicated by the overlap between white and Hispanic). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11284 "2013-06-27T15:43:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > … Sgt. Anthony Raimondo Jr., one of the first responders, described the scene he came upon that drizzly Sunday night 17 months ago: Trayvon, 17, was facedown in the wet grass, his hands tucked under his body. … I truly don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. There was a witness to what transpired after the shooting. What problem in court is there over Zimmerman’s claim he searched the body. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11285 "2013-06-27T16:06:22Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > The issue is about what TM knew, not about what GZ did. > How would TM know GZ was travelling in any direction once TM no longer knew where GZ was? Martin knew where Zimmerman’s truck. It’s logical to assume Zimmerman would return to it. And according to Dee Dee Martin said Zimmerman was coming back. Which corresponds to Zimmerman’s account of walking back on the walk he came from and the location of the fight. Now take a moment to review what is occurring. Zimmerman made no attempt to hide. He made no attempt to talk quietly on the phone. He actually bangs something (presumed to be his larger flashlight). He has a smaller flashlight he’s using. He is a walking beacon. Martin, according to Dee Dee is by his house and has lost sight of Zimmerman. He has also lowered his voice and his breathing changes. It appears he is trying to be stealthy. He goes from his house or wherever he can’t hear and see Zimmerman to the location of the fight which is the direction of his car. He then acknowledges that Zimmerman is coming back. If he was hiding near the location the fight started he would never have lost sight of Zimmerman. Now, is it possible that another scenario exists? Of course. But where Martin said he was fits the narrative versus contradicts the narrative. You can’t pretend Martin was not near his house because you want to. It fits the reason he gave for not running any more and it fits not being able to see (or hear) Zimmerman. He’s far enough away that he can’t. It’s a logical conclusion versus some other possibility. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11286 "2013-06-27T16:41:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Martin knew where Zimmerman’s truck. It’s logical to assume Zimmerman would return to it. At _some point_, yes. But, in fact, GZ was not back at his truck. Whether or not you hold it to be alogical conclusion, it would have been an incorrect one. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11287 "2013-06-27T18:22:21Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I truly don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. There was a witness to what transpired after the shooting. What problem in court is there over Zimmerman’s claim he searched the body. The point is: the only things you “know” Are whatever things Zimmerman claimed. The point is the only “evidence” You believe exists, is evidence which supports what Zimmerman said. The point is, you completely ignore any facts which disagree with your beliefs about Zimmerman. The point is Zimmerman told a rather elaborate lie about what happened after he shot Martin. The point is we know it was a lie because of physical reality disproving his lie. The point is that this is one of many lies, and it’s an important lie, and it’s a lie which undermines his story. The point is that we’ve known about this lie for a year, we’ve talked about this lie off and on for a year, the point is that here we are at trial and _you_ are still _retelling his lie._ The point is: you are a Zimmerman apologist so devoted to his story you clearly do not have any conscious awareness of _anything_ other than what George Zimmerman has said along with anything you believe supports what George Zimmerman has said, and therefore you have sacrificed any claim you try to make on knowing or understanding the facts of what happened in this case. _That_ is the point. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11288 "2013-06-27T18:36:52Z")
_What_ evidence that shows he’s lying? You’ve repeatedly claimed to have it but you’ve not presented it, and neither have the State in discovery, so it’s not evidence that’s in the public domain. Why do you think he’s lying? What “physical reality” shows that? What “facts” are people ignoring? An why do you keep claiming they exist but refusing to share them? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11289 "2013-06-27T18:40:47Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The point is: the only things you “know” Are whatever things Zimmerman claimed. The point is the only “evidence” You believe exists, is evidence which supports what Zimmerman said. The point is, you completely ignore any facts which disagree with your beliefs about Zimmerman. > > The point is Zimmerman told a rather elaborate lie about what happened after he shot Martin. The point is we know it was a lie because of physical reality disproving his lie. The point is that this is one of many lies, and it’s an important lie, and it’s a lie which undermines his story. The point is that we’ve known about this lie for a year, we’ve talked about this lie off and on for a year, the point is that here we are at trial and _you_ are still _retelling his lie._ > > The point is: you are a Zimmerman apologist so devoted to his story you clearly do not have any conscious awareness of _anything_ other than what George Zimmerman has said along with anything you believe supports what George Zimmerman has said, and therefore you have sacrificed any claim you try to make on knowing or understanding the facts of what happened in this case. > > _That_ is the point. where is the lie? Are you saying he didn’t check Martin for weapons? Again, there is a witness who could tell us this didn’t occur so I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. If you have a specific item I’ve talked about then spell it out in detail and we will debate it. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11290 "2013-06-27T18:42:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What percentage of blacks are in Seminole County? **Bricker** , I know my people. The only reason why that Court room is _not_ packed with supporters is specifically because the Court won’t allow it or they were turned away. I can guarantee you that, 100%. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11291 "2013-06-27T18:54:34Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > **Bricker** , I know my people. The only reason why that Court room is _not_ packed with supporters is specifically because the Court won’t allow it or they were turned away. I can guarantee you that, 100%. You live in Seminole County and know a lot of people or is this going to be another bit of racial clairvoyance on your part? Either cite that black people were turned away or retract the statement. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11292 "2013-06-27T19:01:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > _What_ evidence that shows he’s lying? You’ve repeatedly claimed to have it but you’ve not presented it, and neither have the State in discovery, so it’s not evidence that’s in the public domain. > > Why do you think he’s lying? What “physical reality” shows that? What “facts” are people ignoring? An why do you keep claiming they exist but refusing to share them? > [@Magiver](#): > > where is the lie? Are you saying he didn’t check Martin for weapons? Again, there is a witness who could tell us this didn’t occur so I really don’t understand what point you’re trying to make. If you have a specific item I’ve talked about then spell it out in detail and we will debate it. The really scary part is that I think the two of you honestly believe what you are saying. And I guess I have to just take this as a really disturbing lesson in the power of people’s desire to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11293 "2013-06-27T19:03:08Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > **Bricker** , I know my people. The only reason why that Court room is _not_ packed with supporters is specifically because the Court won’t allow it or they were turned away. I can guarantee you that, 100%. You claimed they weren’t your people, but a collection of disparate individuals with nothing in common earlier. Obviously, protesters of any sort won’t, and shouldn’t be allowed in a courtroom, and “supporters” is nothing more than a euphemism for that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11294 "2013-06-27T19:03:20Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > And I guess I have to just take this as a really disturbing lesson in the power of people’s desire to believe. That’s the right lesson, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11295 "2013-06-27T19:05:12Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The really scary part is that I think the two of you honestly believe what you are saying. And I guess I have to just take this as a really disturbing lesson in the power of people’s desire to believe. What’s disturbing is that you can’t post a single argument and stick to it. This is the 3rd time you posted about something to do with Martin’s arms without spelling it out. Cat got your tongue? Is you keyboard missing the keys necessary to construct a cogent thought? what is the exact nature of your problem that you can’t do this simple thing? ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Dollar\_Tallboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Two\_Dollar\_Tallboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Dollar_Tallboy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11296 "2013-06-27T19:10:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You live in Seminole County and know a lot of people or is this going to be another bit of racial clairvoyance on your part? Either cite that black people were turned away or retract the statement. Honesty may not live in Seminole County, but I do. There is a drawing for the general public to attend the trial. [http://wftc.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/22498443/george-zimmerman-trial-how-to-attend?config=H264](http://wftc.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/22498443/george-zimmerman-trial-how-to-attend?config=H264) I was planning on attending for a day or 2, but didn’t feel like messing around with the drawing, and I bet many people lost interest for the same reason. Due to Seminole being predominately white, I’m guessing the more vocal supporters are in neighboring Orange county. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11297 "2013-06-27T19:10:30Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The really scary part is that I think the two of you honestly believe what you are saying. And I guess I have to just take this as a really disturbing lesson in the power of people’s desire to believe. No, what’s scary is that _you_ believe what you’re saying despite the fact that you have no evidence for it. We have the evidence, and have provided it over and over again. We know Zimmerman didn’t follow Martin, because we know, from the NEN call, where he stopped. We know Martin chose to confront him, because there is no other way they could have encountered each other - because we know Martin went home. We know it was self defence because we can see the injuries on Zimmerman’s face and head, and the injury to Martin’s hand, and we can see the lack of any other injuries, or any evidence whatsoever that Zimmerman started the fight. Every single claim you’ve made has been rebutted, again and again, whether it’s a claim about the facts of the case, or the law in Florida. Again, you have refused to answer the questions. What evidence is there against Zimmerman? Why do you believe he lied to the police? Why do you believe his killing of Martin was illegal? What evidence is there? I _know_ you won’t answer those questions, because I know the truthful answer. You know because you have decided the truth regardless of fact, and will work as hard as possible to reshape the world to fit the truth you wish to impose on it. Facts are irrelevant to you, as is evidence. You are incapable of learning, either from your own mistakes, or from the lessons of others. This, by the way, is not an insult, it’s an observation. You are not stupid, or lazy, but for whatever reason, you will not attempt to learn. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11298 "2013-06-27T19:29:10Z")
The state is bring up -exactly- the same point I noted about 100 pages ago: if Zimmerman wanted to get an address of the house he was parked in front of, it was available right in front of him as he walked up the cut-through. Lit up and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11299 "2013-06-27T19:29:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I _know_ you won’t answer those questions, because I know the truthful answer. You know because you have decided the truth regardless of fact, and will work as hard as possible to reshape the world to fit the truth you wish to impose on it. Facts are irrelevant to you, as is evidence. You are gazing in the mirror as you speak. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11300 "2013-06-27T19:30:16Z")
> [@Two\_Dollar\_Tallboy](#): > > Honesty may not live in Seminole County, but I do. There is a drawing for the general public to attend the trial. [http://wftc.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/22498443/george-zimmerman-trial-how-to-attend?config=H264](http://wftc.membercenter.worldnow.com/story/22498443/george-zimmerman-trial-how-to-attend?config=H264) > > I was planning on attending for a day or 2, but didn’t feel like messing around with the drawing, and I bet many people lost interest for the same reason. > > Due to Seminole being predominately white, I’m guessing the more vocal supporters are in neighboring Orange county. But that can’t be. Honesty knows his people. the court must be separating the drawings into two piles and throwing away the pile marked “Honesty’s People”. He’s assured us 100%. Of course, if he’s actually researched it his “people” held a townhall meeting at a local church. Here is a [cite](http://www.cfnews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2013/6/24/george_zimmerman_tri_0.html)complete with pictures and everything. Honesty, unless you retract that post you will be asked for a cite until you do. I’m not going to let another one of your baseless statements go unchallenged. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11301 "2013-06-27T19:31:28Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The state is bring up -exactly- the same point I noted about 100 pages ago: if Zimmerman wanted to get an address of the house he was parked in front of, it was available right in front of him as he walked up the cut-through. Lit up and everything. What good is a house number without a street name? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11302 "2013-06-27T19:32:19Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > The state is bring up -exactly- the same point I noted about 100 pages ago: if Zimmerman wanted to get an address of the house he was parked in front of, it was available right in front of him as he walked up the cut-through. Lit up and everything. And the witness just contradicted that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=564) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=566)