# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 567
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11324 "2013-06-27T23:43:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, we did. > > Your statement: > > “you can’t claim self defense in the legal sense if you’re losing a fight that you started, and losing a fight that you started accounts for his injuries.” > > Florida law: > > 776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, **unless** : > > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. > > So, yes, Florida law says that you can be the aggressor (as in “fight that you started”) and still claim self-defense if you satisfy one of those two paragraphs above - (a) or (b). Is it really (a) or (b), or are both conditions required? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11325 "2013-06-27T23:48:26Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > I came up with a plausible scenario in which it wasn’t self defense without contradicting any of the physical evidence. No, you did not. It doesn’t account for the fact that Zimmerman would have been physically incapable of that attack, and it doesn’t account for Zimmerman’s multiple injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11326 "2013-06-27T23:49:30Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Is it really (a) or (b), or are both conditions required? It says “or” at the end of clause (a). ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11327 "2013-06-27T23:52:04Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > In _general_, I think all-female jury will be biased against Zimmerman because they’d be able to compare the situation with their children and grandchildren. I think an all-female jury would be more likely to empathize with Trayvon walking to get a treat for his brother, more so than an all-male jury would. However, in this case, we don’t just have an all-female jury, we basically have jury that’s 80% white. So that dents it a bit, because white people have a tendency to be biased against black people. I think an all female jury might be good for Zimmerman. It might not be true, but there’s an idea out there that women are more concerned about crime and physical assault than men, and more supportive of claims of self defense. So they might be more likely to think, “Here’s this guy who’s being attacked and had to defend himself.” ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11328 "2013-06-27T23:52:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, you did not. It doesn’t account for the fact that Zimmerman would have been physically incapable of that attack, and it doesn’t account for Zimmerman’s multiple injuries. How so? On both counts. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11329 "2013-06-27T23:54:53Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Is aggravated assault (say, a dozen roundhouse kicks) a felony? Seems 1 would apply. 1 would only apply if the defendant was charged with an independent forcible felony. See [JOHNSON v. STATE](http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district-court-of-appeal/1574795.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11330 "2013-06-28T00:16:05Z")
(omitted) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11331 "2013-06-28T00:35:18Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > How so? On both counts. He had either a leg or back condition (exacerbated by this attack) that limited his physical movement. I can’t remember the details, and I can’t be bothered to look them up for a ridiculous hypothetical, but it was an issue when it was suggested that Zimmerman could have chased down and caught Martin. He couldn’t. Also, your hypothetical posits one punch, then restraint. How did Zimmerman get all his injuries from that? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11332 "2013-06-28T00:55:08Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Easy. Zimmerman, using his kickboxing judo skills, attempted to delivery 12 consecutive roundhouse kicks to Martin’s head. Martin, deftly avoided all attacks, used physical force to knock his attacker to the ground, and then physically restrained him while shouting for help. Zimmerman, realizing he was losing the fight the he started (and not realizing that he attacked an innocent kid instead of a drugged out burglar), pulls a gun and fires in self defense. > > In other words, you can’t claim self defense in the legal sense if you’re losing a fight that you started, and losing a fight that you started accounts for his injuries. > > Man, that was easy. If only you could create evidence as easily as these fantasies. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11333 "2013-06-28T01:11:28Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If only you could create evidence as easily as these fantasies. I think this is the whole problem here, the fantasies. People think that, because it _might_ have been murder, there _must_ be a punishment, regardless of what can actually be proved, and indeed regardless of what the law actually says is a crime in some cases. I can certainly accept saying that, if there might have been a murder, there must be a full investigation, and any possible leads should be followed up. But it does not follow from that that a crime must have been committed, nor does it follow that a court case is required to determine that. Is it possible that Zimmerman murdered Martin, and lied about it in a way that is consistent with evidence he couldn’t have known? Yes, of course it is. Is there _any_ reason to believe that? No. It comes solely from the flawed thinking that, because Martin is dead, someone else must be responsible, and must be held to account. That does not follow. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11334 "2013-06-28T01:59:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Is it possible that Zimmerman murdered Martin, and lied about it in a way that is consistent with evidence he couldn’t have known? Yes, of course it is. Is there _any_ reason to believe that? No. It comes solely from the flawed thinking that, because Martin is dead, someone else must be responsible, and must be held to account. That does not follow. The probability of successfully lying for 5 hrs without knowing what evidence exists is extremely low. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11335 "2013-06-28T02:15:35Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The probability of successfully lying for 5 hrs without knowing what evidence exists is extremely low. Absolutely. But, if there turns out to be compelling evidence that’s what happened, it should be accepted. Of course, in reality, that evidence doesn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11336 "2013-06-28T03:54:10Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Stoid, I’ve wasted the afternoon waiting for you to formulate a simple sentence explaining why Martin’s hand position constituted a lie on Zimmerman’s part. Maybe you can figure out your own point in the next 8 hrs. I’ve got stuff to do. Given your extraordinary ability to insert, infer, assume, embellish and explain everything so that it all makes Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense plausible, and the more than one thousand posts you have devoted to doing so, all while steadfastly denying the _existence_ of anything that interferes, clearly it is my time that would be wasted. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11337 "2013-06-28T04:15:50Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Given your extraordinary ability to insert, infer, assume, embellish and explain everything so that it all makes Zimmerman’s claim of self-defense plausible, and the more than one thousand posts you have devoted to doing so, all while steadfastly denying the _existence_ of anything that interferes, clearly it is my time that would be wasted. I’m not proud… or tired. Click on this link . . . fuck it, > [@](#): > > SANFORD – In the second day of testimony in the George Zimmerman murder trial, jurors twisted uncomfortably in their seats as they viewed blown-up crime scene photos of Trayvon Martin’s body and heard details of the dramatic, futile efforts to save him after a shot to the heart last February. > > Sgt. Anthony Raimondo Jr., one of the first responders, described the scene he came upon that drizzly Sunday night 17 months ago: Trayvon, 17, was facedown in the wet grass, his hands tucked under his body. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/06/25/3469412/judge-to-decide-if-jurors-should.html#storylink=cpy)[/RIGHT] Where did Zimmerman say he left Martin’s hands, where were they when, seconds later, the first responders arrived. Count-down 'til “Just because Zimmerman didn’t say that Martin moved after Zimmerman arranged Martin’s hands doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!” CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11338 "2013-06-28T04:43:14Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m not proud… or tired. > > Click on this link . . . fuck it,Where did Zimmerman say he left Martin’s hands, where were they when, seconds later, the first responders arrived. > > Count-down 'til “Just because Zimmerman didn’t say that Martin moved after Zimmerman arranged Martin’s hands doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!” > > CMC fnord! You’re terribly optimistic in thinking there will be any acknowledgement at all. But if there is, I’m sure it will be combined with some version of “What difference does it make where his hands were? Zimmerman still feared for his life because Martin was bashing his head into the cement so he had to kill him and that’s legal and all the evidence proves it and there’s no evidence that proves anything different! Zimmerman nearly lost consciousness, of course he doesn’t remember every detail perfectly! It doesn’t mean he lied! He never lied! There are no inconsistencies except things that don’t change anything because he had to kill him and that’s the facts and the truth and the evidence and there’s nothing any different than that anywhere ever and every single thing ever supports every single thing that Zimmerman says about what happened or it doesn’t say anything at all unless it proves that of course he had to kill him totally legally and that’s what all the evidence shows and it was legal to kill him and he should have killed him and there’s no reason on earth to think anything different because all the evidence only proves this one thing and no other thing is possible and why can’t you understand that?!?!?!” ad nauseum… ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11339 "2013-06-28T05:17:47Z")
By the way, anyone here come up with an explanation for how it is that Martin covered Zimmerman’s nose and mouth, preventing him from breathing, at which point Zimmerman, who could not breath, shot Martin, and it is only at the moment of the shot that the screams for help stop? And the fact that the screams for help are never muffled prior to that? Does Zimmerman have two mouths, by any chance, one he breaths with and the other he screams help out of? Yeah, that’s probably it… ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11340 "2013-06-28T06:13:10Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > … I know my people. The only reason why that Court room is _not_ packed with supporters is specifically because the Court won’t allow it or they were turned away. I can guarantee you that, 100%. Seminole County has been holding lotteries for the 24 available seats. [http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/lottery-to-be-held-for-george-zimmerman-trial-courtroom-seats/-/14266478/20400768/-/11yn5tl/-/index.html](http://www.wesh.com/news/central-florida/trayvon-martin-extended-coverage/lottery-to-be-held-for-george-zimmerman-trial-courtroom-seats/-/14266478/20400768/-/11yn5tl/-/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11341 "2013-06-28T06:47:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > By the way, anyone here come up with an explanation for how it is that Martin covered Zimmerman’s nose and mouth, preventing him from breathing, at which point Zimmerman, who could not breath, shot Martin, and it is only at the moment of the shot that the screams for help stop? And the fact that the screams for help are never muffled prior to that? > > Does Zimmerman have two mouths, by any chance, one he breaths with and the other he screams help out of? > > Yeah, that’s probably it… Wait, I forgot, the screams don’t stop! Zimmerman continues to scream help me help me while he’s stretching Martin’s arms wide apart… Yeah, thats the ticket… Isn’t it Zimmerman married to Morgan Fairchild? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11342 "2013-06-28T08:35:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’m not proud… or tired. > > Click on this link . . . fuck it,Where did Zimmerman say he left Martin’s hands, where were they when, seconds later, the first responders arrived. > > Count-down 'til “Just because Zimmerman didn’t say that Martin moved after Zimmerman arranged Martin’s hands doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!” > > CMC fnord! According to Zimmerman he frisked Martin. there was a witness to this. What is your point about Martin’s hands? The police found Martin’s hand tucked into his body and… What? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11343 "2013-06-28T08:58:44Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You’re terribly optimistic in thinking there will be any acknowledgement at all. > > But if there is, I’m sure it will be combined with some version of "What difference does it make where his hands were? I asked you repeatedly what your point was. You’ve yet to construct a thought that can be discussed. > [@Stoid](#): > > Zimmerman still feared for his life because Martin was bashing his head into the cement so he had to kill him and that’s legal and all the evidence proves it and there’s no evidence that proves anything different! > Zimmerman nearly lost consciousness, of course he doesn’t remember every detail perfectly! It doesn’t mean he lied! He never lied! There are no inconsistencies except things that don’t change anything because he had to kill him and that’s the facts and the truth and the evidence and there’s nothing any different than that anywhere ever and every single thing ever supports every single thing that Zimmerman says about what happened or it doesn’t say anything at all unless it proves that of course he had to kill him totally legally and that’s what all the evidence shows and it was legal to kill him and he should have killed him and there’s no reason on earth to think anything different because all the evidence only proves this one thing and no other thing is possible and why can’t you understand that?!?!?!" > > ad nauseum… You keep talking about lies yet you can’t seem to post a coherent sentence describing what you know to be a lie. You’ve insinuated that you don’t believe him yet you can’t seem to get around to citing your proof. You don’t seem to grasp the difference between your opinion and fact. As Steophan has repeatedly explained, evidence falls into 3 categories. it can prove something, be neutral, or refute it. And one other thing, Zimmerman did not claim he shot Martin because he was in fear of his life as a result of the head slams to the cement. He said he shot Martin over a struggle for the gun. He would be within his rights to shoot Martin in self defense over the head injuries but that is not the narrative he gave. We don’t know if he had the opportunity to do so with Martin on top of him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=566) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=568)