# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 568
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11344 "2013-06-28T09:06:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > … The police found Martin’s hand tucked into his body and… What? > [@Magiver](#): > > … According to Zimmrman they should have been spread out … CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11345 "2013-06-28T09:13:55Z")
Why the assumption that Martin couldn’t move his arms? What is that based on? He was still alive when the police arrived. Is this another inconvenient fact people are going to ignore? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11346 "2013-06-28T09:34:49Z")
[quote=“crowmanyclouds, post:11344, topic:619125”] Is it really difficult to type a sentence in your own words expressing a thought so that I can hit respond and it shows up? Per Zimmerman he searched Martin after he shot him. He moved his arms out in the process. I believe there was a witness to this. What legal point to you wish to raise regarding the position the police found Martin’s hands upon arrival? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11347 "2013-06-28T09:42:01Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > … He was still alive when the police arrived. > > Is this another inconvenient fact people are going to ignore? What is that based on? Ya know CITE! > [@Steophan](#): > > Why the assumption that Martin couldn’t move his arms? … > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Count-down 'til “Just because Zimmerman didn’t say that Martin moved after Zimmerman arranged Martin’s hands doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!” 11330 - 11338, pretty quick! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11348 "2013-06-28T10:00:04Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > What is that based on? Ya know CITE! We’ve been through all of this more than once in this thread, so find the last time and read it. But it’s pretty obvious that it takes more than a few seconds to die if the brain or spinal cord aren’t damaged. > [@](#): > > 11330 - 11338, pretty quick! Yeah, you even knew the answer to your own question. Makes me wonder why you bothered posting it. If you think he would have necessarily died instantly, you’ve been watching too many movies. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11349 "2013-06-28T10:09:00Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why the assumption that Martin couldn’t move his arms? What is that based on? He was still alive when the police arrived. > > Is this another inconvenient fact people are going to ignore? The police report says Martin was “unresponsive” and “had no pulse” when they arrived. This is the same report that is the only source for the claim that Zimmerman had grass stains on his back, so you’ll have to let that go too if you want to assume the (very Zimmerman-friendly) cops are the ones lying about this. [http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf](http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11350 "2013-06-28T10:12:52Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > What is that based on? Ya know CITE!11330 - 11338, pretty quick! > > CMC fnord! His posts are his cites, of course! What else does he need? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11351 "2013-06-28T10:27:21Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The police report says Martin was “unresponsive” and “had no pulse” when they arrived. This is the same report that is the only source for the claim that Zimmerman had grass stains on his back, so you’ll have to let that go too if you want to assume the (very Zimmerman-friendly) cops are the ones lying about this. > > [http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf](http://www.wagist.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Twin-Lakes-Shooting-Initial-Report.pdf) Huh. Looks like I was wrong about that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11352 "2013-06-28T11:50:05Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > By the way, anyone here come up with an explanation for how it is that Martin covered Zimmerman’s nose and mouth, preventing him from breathing, at which point Zimmerman, who could not breath, shot Martin, and it is only at the moment of the shot that the screams for help stop? [ul] [li] **Zimmerman has never stated, at any point, that Martin covered his nose and mouth continuously throughout the struggle.** [/li][li]_Therefore, there would be intervals during which it was possible for Zimmerman to scream for help._[/li][li]The reason the screams for help stopped at the moment of the shot was that Zimmerman was being beaten, and shot Martin to end the beating.[/li][li]This is evidence that Zimmerman did not commit murder. If he shot because he wanted to kill Martin, he would probably have fired more than once.[/li][/ul]On preview, since you don’t read anything that isn’t bolded and highlighted and underlined… On further preview, you don’t read anything anyway, but fuck it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11353 "2013-06-28T13:10:05Z")
I don’t think anyone doubts that Martin died very, very quickly. Now think about how much time would have passed from the shot, Martin sitting up and giving his ‘you got me’ death speech, George pushing Martin off, then George scrambling up, jumping on the guy that 10 seconds ago he afraid was trying to kill him, even though he didn’t know that his shot had hit Martin (Really? He went from ‘this guy is going to kill me’ to ‘he just gave up, just like that’?) he straddles Martin’s body, then does the whole ‘pushed Martin’s hands out’ bit, and then he stands up. After all this, Martin \*still \*has to push his body up, then move his arms enough to get his hands completely under his body. It’s debatable whether Martin would have even been able to talk after the shot, let alone move in such a way. And not one witness says they saw Martin move after the shot. Really, the location of Martin’s body is a bit of a mystery. According to George, after getting shot Martin sat up, then George pushed him off. If George’s head is on or near the sidewalk, that means Martin would be facing the sidewalk, so when he gets pushed off, he should go backwards, face up, with his feet pointed towards the sidewalk. Instead, Martin ends up \*face down, \*and it’s his \*head \*that is pointed towards the sidewalk. Plus, his body isn’t located anywhere near the sidewalk at all - pretty much impossible for George’s head to be even near the sidewalk based on the location of Martins’ body, unless George was about 9 feet tall. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11354 "2013-06-28T14:05:14Z")
Current witness is the guy that initially said he thought the guy on top was throwing down punches ‘MMA style’, the guy that actually stepped outside. His testimony is going to be useful for the defense more than anything. ---
**Author:** ![ForumJunky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/77aa72/32.png) [@ForumJunky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumJunky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11355 "2013-06-28T16:21:25Z")
> **[The Quote that May End the Trayvon Trial](https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a23217/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview/)** > > Optional musical accompaniment to this post. > Zimmerman is going to be found guilty. All the evidence you need all the evidence the cops needed is right there in the interrogation they did with him just before letting him go. (You can l... **“George Zimmerman is going to be found guilty”** ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11356 "2013-06-28T16:30:01Z")
> [@ForumJunky](#): > > [The Quote that May End the Trayvon Trial](http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview) > > **“George Zimmerman is going to be found guilty”** Not if the jury agree with Zimmerman that unrecognised people walking around a private place are suspicious, and there’s nothing wrong with calling the police on them, or following them. Not to mention that that article doesn’t even address the question of self defence - and without proof that he didn’t kill in self defence, he can’t be convicted. Zimmerman _might_ have been a paranoid arsehole, but that doesn’t negate his right to defend himself. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11357 "2013-06-28T16:33:05Z")
> [@ForumJunky](#): > > [The Quote that May End the Trayvon Trial](http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/trayvon-martin-trial-quote-police-interview) > > **“George Zimmerman is going to be found guilty”** So he’s guilty because he tried to be specific about where he was meeting the police? That’s an interesting point of view. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ForumJunky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/77aa72/32.png) [@ForumJunky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumJunky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11358 "2013-06-28T16:35:39Z")
You’re right, afterall… he wasn’t following this suspicious person, they were just “going in the same direction” ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11359 "2013-06-28T16:38:17Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Current witness is the guy that initially said he thought the guy on top was throwing down punches ‘MMA style’, the guy that actually stepped outside. His testimony is going to be useful for the defense more than anything. I’m not so sure, > [@](#): > > … He {John Good} said he couldn’t be 100 percent sure who said “help,” but thought it was Zimmerman. He also said he couldn’t absolutely confirm punches were thrown, only that he saw “downward movement.” > … He said he saw the fight move to the sidewalk. However, he said he didn’t see the person on top slam the bottom person’s head on the concrete, as Zimmerman says Trayvon did. …[RIGHT][CITE](http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/trayvon-martin/os-george-zimmerman-trial-day-15-20130628,0,7092519.story)[/RIGHT] CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11360 "2013-06-28T16:39:02Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I don’t think anyone doubts that Martin died very, very quickly. > > Now think about how much time would have passed from the shot, Martin sitting up and giving his ‘you got me’ death speech, George pushing Martin off, then George scrambling up, jumping on the guy that 10 seconds ago he afraid was trying to kill him, even though he didn’t know that his shot had hit Martin (Really? He went from ‘this guy is going to kill me’ to ‘he just gave up, just like that’?) he straddles Martin’s body, then does the whole ‘pushed Martin’s hands out’ bit, and then he stands up. After all this, Martin \*still \*has to push his body up, then move his arms enough to get his hands completely under his body. > > It’s debatable whether Martin would have even been able to talk after the shot, let alone move in such a way. And not one witness says they saw Martin move after the shot. > > Really, the location of Martin’s body is a bit of a mystery. According to George, after getting shot Martin sat up, then George pushed him off. If George’s head is on or near the sidewalk, that means Martin would be facing the sidewalk, so when he gets pushed off, he should go backwards, face up, with his feet pointed towards the sidewalk. Instead, Martin ends up \*face down, \*and it’s his \*head \*that is pointed towards the sidewalk. Plus, his body isn’t located anywhere near the sidewalk at all - pretty much impossible for George’s head to be even near the sidewalk based on the location of Martins’ body, unless George was about 9 feet tall. Do you have evidence that Martin died instantly? Yes, no? Someone in Martin’s situation would have experienced a massive dose of adrenalin prior to dying. It’s what the human body does in a crisis situation. That’s a given. Regardless of what Zimmerman would have done to Martin the natural response to a wound would be to draw your hands to it. I think it more likely than not that Martin would have attempted this. Setting that aside, I’ll ask the question again, what law do you think was broken here? What legal premise are you trying to make that Martin’s hands were not precisely where Zimmerman said he left them? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11361 "2013-06-28T16:56:18Z")
> [@ForumJunky](#): > > You’re right, afterall.. he wasn’t following this suspicious person, they were just “going in the same direction” So what if he did follow him? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11362 "2013-06-28T16:56:49Z")
> [@ForumJunky](#): > > You’re right, afterall.. he wasn’t following this suspicious person, they were just “going in the same direction” That article is pretty darn awful, no matter what conclusions you come to about this case, because it is howlingly illogical. The most charitable explanation is that the author knows very little about the case. > [@](#): > > Why did he follow Martin, a police officer asks. > > “These assholes, they always get away,” Zimmerman answers. > > The officer asks, “What’s behind that?” > > “These people who victimize the neighborhood,” Zimmerman answers. > > In Zimmerman’s angry mind, without trial or jury, even after he killed him and learned he was a 17-year-old who was legitimately staying in the complex, Martin was an asshole victimizing the neighborhood. Zimmerman is explaining why he did what he did on the night of the shooting. He’s not saying Martin was victimizing the nighborhood, but rather that _he suspected that at the time._ > [@](#): > > A few moments later, he asks Zimmerman why he kept following Martin even after the police dispatcher told him not to. Zimmerman’s answer is staggering. > > “I wanted to give them an address.” > > _An address?_ This may be the moment that will convict him. It means that even he suspected that Martin was a legitimate visitor to the complex, staying in an apartment and legally on the property, Zimmerman continued to pursue him. He doesn’t mean Martin’s address, because he _doesn’t_ suspect that he’s a legitimate visitor to the complex, but instead precisely the opposite. It can be debated whether the reason Zimmerman didn’t return to his truck right away was because he was looking for an address or not, but to suggest that he was looking for Martin’s address, rather than one he could direct police to meet him at, is both novel and stupid. > [@](#): > > The next moment reveals another aspect of Zimmerman’s state of mind, complete paranoia. The officer plays the tape of him with the police dispatcher, when he refuses to give his address to the dispatcher “out loud” — the embattled neighborhood watch volunteer so afraid of the fking punks in his neighborhood that he’s afraid of giving _the police_ his address, despite the complete lack of evidence that any of those punks had ever attacked him before. Like these fearsome criminals are tapping the public airwaves and listening to cell phone conversations just to get him. I’ve never heard this theory before, probably because it’s so stupid. He says on the recording “I don’t know where this kid is”; he’s concerned about being overheard by Martin, not the call being tapped or giving his address to the police. ---
**Author:** ![ForumJunky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/77aa72/32.png) [@ForumJunky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ForumJunky)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11363 "2013-06-28T17:08:55Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So what if he did follow him? Then he wasn’t scared out of his boots of some punk and only wet his pants when he realized he bit off more than he could chew. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=567) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=569)