# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 571
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11404 "2013-06-29T06:36:58Z")
The cycle of this thread is “Zimmerman is shown to be lying about something, assertions that his credibility is irrelevant are brazenly made, hopscotch onto the next point, Zimmerman is shown to be lying about that, repeat.” All interspersed with “we know this is true because Zimmerman said it.” ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11405 "2013-06-29T06:53:57Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he could see Martin turn right and run South. Zimmerman continued East and the back West toward his truck. If he was going to follow him he would have turned in the direction Martin ran. We have zero evidence - other than Zimmerman’s statements - that he went straight through the cut-through. I can’t recall specifically, but didn’t Zimmerman bang his flashlight against the doggy potty at some point during the call? That means that he was at least up to the T, which makes sense, as that’s the last place he saw Martin. If he did indeed go through the cut-through while on the call, why didn’t he give the dispatch a house address? Especially since according to him that’s why he went through to the cut-through. Not because he was looking for Martin, oh no sir. There’s also no evidence that he went back to his truck. If he was at his truck, why would he need to tell the dispatch to have the cops call him when they got there and he’d tell them where he was? > [@Magiver](#): > > He did commit to a location. His truck. He asked the police to call him when they arrived. Incorrect. After initially agreeing to meet -at the mailboxes - and remember, they had already established the address for the clubhouse - he clearly, and undeniably, changes his mind: > [@](#): > > **Dispatcher:** Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? > > **Zimmerman:** Yeah that’s fine. > > \*\*Dispatcher: \*\*Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there, okay? > > **Zimmerman:** Actually could you have them, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? What part of ‘Actually, could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at’ do you think means ‘I’ll be at my truck where we didn’t agree to meet’? > [@Magiver](#): > > Let me get this straight, you think he gave too much information in the walkthrough? Are you fucking serious? If he was lying then he would be setting himself up yet you have yet to cite a single solitary provable lie. Not one. All you’ve managed to do is say you don’t believe him, therefore he’s lying. There are several clear lies and inconsistencies in the video walk-through, but let’s start with an easy one. In the video walk through (7 minutes in on this [clip](http://youtu.be/X_2NeMrGCvg). ‘Then I thought to get out and look for a street sign’, because the NEN dispatch wanted to know which way Martin went. But on the NEN call, it’s clear as day - Zimmerman gets out of the car immediately after Martin starts running, and in fact he knows exactly which way Martin is headed: towards the back entrance. Zimmerman isn’t asked what address he’s parked in front of until long after he got out of his car. > [@Magiver](#): > > on what planet do you live on that you would try to resuscitate someone who attacked you. If you hadn’t already made your thinking clear enough, this little gem tells everyone all we need to know. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11406 "2013-06-29T07:31:52Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > he could see Martin turn right and run South. Zimmerman continued East and the back West toward his truck. If he was going to follow him he would have turned in the direction Martin ran. Which is according to GZ, right? Except he also said he continued in the same direction as Martin, just wasn’t following him, then lost sight of him altogether and was afraid he might be close enough to hear his address so couldn’t have known where he was at that point…so I guess…um…gee… 😕 How is it you’re so sure when GZ isn’t? GZ had no idea at all where he went, so how could you? And let’s not forget the lies that George told out the gate, the way he tried to hide the fact that he was going after Martin…why would he have done that, I wonder? Let’s relive the magic of the moment he got called out for that, shall we? > [@](#): > > plays tape 2:08 to 2:10) > Serino: OK, is that you getting out of the car? > Zimmerman: Yes. > Serino: OK. > Singleton: So as soon as he runs, you’re getting out of the car to follow him. > Zimmerman: When he says which way are you running, I turned off the ignition. > Singleton: I don’t know. > (plays tape 2:10 to 2:14) > Serino: At that point you’re out of the car? > Zimmerman: I think so. > **Serino: OK, so you basically jumped out of the car to see where he was going? > Zimmerman: Yes, sir.** > Serino: OK. That’s not fear. You know what I mean? > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: That’s one of the problems I have with the whole thing, or I’m gonna have. I mean, I don’t have any problems at all, it’s just that… it’s gonna be a problem > (plays tape 2:14 to 2:17) > Singleton: It sounds like you’re running right there. > Zimmerman: I wasn’t running. > Singleton: Oh (unintelligible) > (plays tape 2:16 to 2:17) > Serino: What is that you’re whispering? Fucking what? > Zimmerman: Punks. > Serino: Fucking punks. He wasn’t a fucking punk. (clears throat) > (plays tape 2:17 to 2:26) > Serino: OK. > (plays tape 2:26 to 2:34 ) > Serino: OK, at the point where he said, are you following him, and he said, we don’t need you to do that, what went through your mind? > Zimmerman: He’s right. > Serino: So you shoulda stopped and went back to your vehicle. > Zimmerman: I still wanted to give him an address. > Serino: OK. > (plays tape 2:34 to 2:40) > Serino: You said he ran again. OK, this is, this is because you don’t see him? > Zimmerman: Correct. > Serino: So at this point he has to be hiding from you. > Zimmerman: I don’t know where he was. > Serino: Well you… > Zimmerman: I don’t see him. > Serino: Well the law of the physics says that he’s hiding from you at this point. He could not have made it home…and came back to attack you in that time, so…What’s your, what’s your, um, account is that you don’t see him at this point. You’re at the T now, right? Here’s the pavement, correct? You’re looking down that way? That passage? > Zimmerman: No, sir. > Serino: Where’re you at? > Zimmerman: Once he told me not to follow him… > Serino: Mm hmm. > Zimmerman: And I wasn’t following him. I was just going in the same direction he was. Once he said… > Serino: That’s following (laughs). > Zimmerman: Well he, I thought, I mean… > Serino: If you’re…OK > Zimmerman: …long gone. > Serino: So you basically wrote if off, I mean… > Zimmerman: Right. I was on the other side, I was on Retreat View Circle at that time. > Serino: OK. > _**Singleton: OK, but the other day…again, this is, these are the questions that we’re going to have to able to explain to people… > Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. > Singleton: The other day you told me you got out of the car because dispatch was asking your location and you wanted to orient yourself. You did not tell me that you said, “Oh, shit, he’s running” and then got out of the car and went in that same direction at the same time. Do you see what the problem is? > Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. > Singleton: And I asked you did, would you, did you, you know, look for him and you told me no. > Zimmerman: I don’t remember, ma’am. I’m sorry. > Singleton: You told me the only, the reason you got out of your car was to get an address. > Zimmerman: Yes, right. > Singleton: But you decided to get the address…fresh in the second after you say, “Oh, shit, he’s running.” And then it sounds like you’re running too.**_ > [@](#): > > He did commit to a location. His truck. He asked the police to call him when they arrived. logically walking along the top of the T would give him a commanding view of the entire backyard area as well as his truck where he’s expecting the police. He could have directed the police as they drove up if he saw someone darting between the houses. Nope! You may be wrong a lot but you are always _creatively_ and _inventively_ so! > [@](#): > > **Dispatcher** :Okay do you want to just meet with them right near the mailboxes then? > **Zimmerman** :Yeah that’s fine. > **Dispatcher** :Alright George, I’ll let them know to meet you around there, okay? > **Zimmerman** : Actually could you have them, could you have them _ **call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?** _ > **Dispatcher** : Okay, yeah that’s no problem. And it looks like I’m hardly alone in seeing through his bullshit, either: > [@](#): > > Serino: That’s a minute and…20 seconds. Did you stop at the “T”? > Zimmerman: No, I walked through. I stopped on Retreat View Circle. > Serino: That’s where you were standing? > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: OK. But you didn’t get back into your car? > Zimmerman: No, sir. > Serino: Why not? > Zimmerman: I was… > Serino: You’re in the rain, you’re getting wet, you’re on the phone. > Zimmerman: Because I was waiting, I, the, I had light there… > Serino: So… > _ **Zimmerman: Where I was at and I was trying to hit my flashlight. I didn’t want to walk back through without light.** _ > Serino: OK, a minute and 20 seconds. > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: OK, you’re in the rain, getting wet. You’ve wrote this guy off basically, you’re gonna meet the police. OK, you see where the obstacle is here? > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: OK, I want you to think about that. I am speaking for you, for everybody. I’m trying to, trying to do the best I can here. > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: It’s a minute and 20 seconds. It doesn’t sound like you were saying, well it doesn’t sound like you quite recall exactly what happened at that point, OK? (unintelligible) something else. This is not right? OK. > Serino: OK can I ask, my concern is also this. “Oh, shit, he’s running” and I’m getting out of my car. In an instant (snaps fingers) to make sure I don’t lose sight of this guy. That’s what it sounds like. Are you following him? Cause that’s what it sounds like you’re doing, that’s why he asked you the question. It sounded to the dispatcher likely that you were running, and that’s why he asked you that question. **“Are you following him?” And your answer is yes. OK? But then you get to the other side and you’re concerned…(slapping sounds) about walking past this guy when you’ve already been chasing him, essentially. And he’s telling you to go back to your car and now you wanna pretend…or not pretend, you wanted us to believe that you’re concerned about having a flashlight to move back where you just ran? > Serino: You’re looking for him.** > _**Singleton: You tried to catch up to him, do you see what I’m saying? > Zimmerman: No, I wasn’t. Um… > Serino: OK, it sounds like you’re looking for him. > Zimmerman: No. > Singleton: You brought a flashlight with you. > Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. > Singleton: You wanted to be able to see him. > Serino: You want to catch him. > Zimmerman: No… > Serino: You wanted to catch the bad guy…**_ > Singleton: No, it doesn’t…that’s…(unintelligible) > Serino: Fucking punk can’t get away. This is outside the interrogation room, OK? And we are in a whole different area right here. OK, this is, this is where, you know, I mean, this is why I took you out of there, so you could hear this. So I can recall your memory and…let you see, if they say, if you say you walked back to your car, you stood outside your car for a couple minutes, they’re not going to believe anything I got to say. > Zimmerman: Yes, sir. > Serino: And that’s why I’m saying, is there anything that you need to clarify right now? > Zimmerman: (sigh) > Serino: Did you pursue this kid? Did you wanna catch him? > Zimmerman: No. > Serino: OK, it’s not you, > Singleton: Why > Serino: it’s not what you’re about? > Zimmerman: No. > _ **Singleton: Why did you tell them, never mind just have them call me when they get here and I’ll tell them where I’m at?** _ > **Zimmerman: I was frustrated that I couldn’t think of the street name where I was… > Singleton: But you were gonna be back in your car from that distance in less than 15 or 20 seconds. So why would they need to call you? > Zimmerman: I felt like I didn’t give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse. > Singleton: OK, cause you know what the impression would be, is that you’re gonna continue to look and when they get here you’d just tell ‘em where you’re at, at that point. You see what I’m saying? Well…no, never mind > Serino: Just keep the (unintelligible) > Singleton: just tell ‘em to call me when they get here, and I’ll tell ‘em where I’m at. Meaning I might not be at my car. Where I just told ‘em I would be.** > [@](#): > > Cite that he lied about following Martin. It’s clear as day on the phone call. What is as clear as day on the phone call? His lie? Yeah, I know! > [@](#): > > Let me get this straight, you think he gave too much information in the walkthrough? Are you fucking serious? If he was lying then he would be setting himself up yet you have yet to cite a single solitary provable lie. Not one. All you’ve managed to do is say you don’t believe him, therefore he’s lying. I’m sure you believe that, Magiver. Although it’s also crossed my mind that you dont’ actually understand what lying is. No way to tell, really. > [@](#): > > How does one make a statement like this without any evidence it’s true. Cite evidence that Martin was incapable of moving his hands a few inches. This would be the apoplexy I referred to earlier…and the blindness. Also the creativity and inventiveness. > [@](#): > > on what planet do you live on that you would try to resuscitate someone who attacked you. So you agree that Zimmerman’s desire at that point was that Martin should die? Yeah, that’s kinda what I think, too. At least we agree on that much. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11407 "2013-06-29T07:33:11Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The cycle of this thread is “Zimmerman is shown to be lying about something, assertions that his credibility is irrelevant are brazenly made, hopscotch onto the next point, Zimmerman is shown to be lying about that, repeat.” All interspersed with “we know this is true because Zimmerman said it.” The work that some peeps are putting in to making GZ’s bullshit seem less bullshitty is really remarkable. What’s the investment? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11408 "2013-06-29T07:36:28Z")
Gee, Drago, why didn’t you tell me you were gonna say all the same stuff I said before I said it? Jeez. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > If you hadn’t already made your thinking clear enough, this little gem tells everyone all we need to know. Ouch. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11409 "2013-06-29T11:58:45Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The evidence tells us that the young man found Zimmerman’s conduct, which included following him, frightening. No it doesn’t. The evidence shows that Martin was not frightened of Zimmerman. If Martin were frightened of Zimmerman, he would not have left the safe place that he had reached ‘right by his father’s house’ and gone looking for Zimmerman in order to attack him. If you are frightened of someone, and you have lost him, and there is a perfectly safe place a few steps away, you do not leave that place and go looking for someone and attack them. You walk in the back door, where it is safe. > [@](#): > > He didn’t attack GZ… Then how did Zimmerman get his broken nose, black eyes, and the gashes on the back of his head, and how did Martin get the mark on his knuckle? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11410 "2013-06-29T12:10:54Z")
Here is the map of the townhouses. Trayvon was staying at 2631 Retreat View Cir, Sanford. The map makes more sense now that I’ve seen testimony from the neighbors. Trayvon was killed at the T (top of the map). Looks like he was maybe a couple minutes from home. Even faster if he ran. He had to reach that spot marked A on the map. Has anyone found evidence maps giving the addresses of the neighbors that testified? They always hold up a map in court and use a sticker to indicate where the witness lived. I can’t find that map evidence online. Well shit. The stinking link didn’t save my zoom settings. How are people saving the zoomed in map? [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2631+retreat+view+circle&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&ei=C8zOUeLeEee9ywH3goCQAw&ved=0CAoQ\_AUoAg](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2631+retreat+view+circle&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&ei=C8zOUeLeEee9ywH3goCQAw&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11411 "2013-06-29T12:23:50Z")
Trying again. This is much better but the saved link is still losing my zoom settings. [https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2631+Retreat+View+Cir,+Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida+32771&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&ei=S9HOUeSZEsaryQH1g4C4CQ&ved=0CAoQ\_AUoAg](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=2631+Retreat+View+Cir,+Sanford,+Seminole,+Florida+32771&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF-8&ei=S9HOUeSZEsaryQH1g4C4CQ&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAg) ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11412 "2013-06-29T13:11:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The evidence shows that Martin was not frightened of Zimmerman. You mean the evidence that Martin thought George was creepy? The evidence - from George, no less - that Martin ran away? That evidence? > [@Shodan](#): > > If Martin were frightened of Zimmerman, he would not have left the safe place that he had reached ‘right by his father’s house’ and gone looking for Zimmerman in order to attack him. Please show the evidence that Martin went looking for Zimmerman. The only evidence we have shows Zimmerman looking for Martin, not the other way around. Please show the evidence that Martin looked for Zimmerman for the purpose of attacking him. If that was his motive, running away seems like a rather odd choice of action. If his motive was to attack Zimmerman, and he was able to approach Zimmerman from behind, as George says, speaking to Zimmerman and ruining any element of surprise seems like a rather odd choice. > [@](#): > > he would not have left the safe place that he had reached ‘right by his father’s house’ I live ‘near’ a little convenience store on the corner. When I’m explaining where I live to someone that doesn’t know the area, it’s ‘right near by’. It’s a three minute walk. Since Team Zimmerman seems to be seizing on the idea that he was so close to his father’s house he could have gotten there right away, surely you’d agree that even the cut-through T could be considered to be ‘right near’ his house. It’s near. It’s fairly close. The evidence could equally be assumed that Martin was trying to stay out of sight because he didn’t want to lead the ‘creepy’ guy following him the last quarter of a mile or so right to his doorstep, stepped out to leave thinking Zimmerman was gone, and but George spotted him. The evidence would be equally consistent with such a scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11413 "2013-06-29T13:27:47Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Please show the evidence that Martin went looking for Zimmerman. We have gone over this a hundred times. Martin was “right by his father’s house”, in back, “'cause it more closer”. That’s what Dee Dee said in her deposition, and repeated in her testimony. > [@](#): > > The evidence could equally be assumed that Martin was trying to stay out of sight because he didn’t want to lead the ‘creepy’ guy following him the last quarter of a mile or so right to his doorstep… No it can’t. If you are trying to avoid someone, and you have lost him, and you want to stay out of sight of him, you don’t go looking for him. You walk into your father’s back door and give the Skittles and watermelon drink to your little brother, which is what you allegedly were up to in the first place. > [@](#): > > The evidence would be equally consistent with such a scenario. No, it isn’t. The evidence is consistent with a scenario where Zimmerman starts following Martin, they lose track of each other, Martin is not afraid of Zimmerman, and leaves a perfectly safe spot, goes back to the last place he saw Zimmerman, finds him, confronts him, and then attacks, breaking his nose, blackening his eyes, and then jumping on his chest and pounding his head on the pavement. That’s what the evidence demonstrates, at least to date. It is backed up by the physical evidence, the relative locations of Martin’s father’s house, the place where Zimmerman parked his truck, the place where the fight took place, Dee Dee’s account of Martin’s movements, and the NEN transcript of the calls where Zimmerman reports where he is and what he is doing before the fact and before he had any reason to prevaricate. On the other hand, to back up any other scenario, we have unfounded speculation, blatant misrepresentation, and denial. Gosh, tough call. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11414 "2013-06-29T14:38:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The evidence is consistent with a scenario where Zimmerman starts following Martin, they lose track of each other The evidence is consistent up to that point. The rest is your spurious, wild-ass conjecture. But txs for playing. ---
**Author:** ![Mgalindo13](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea5d25/32.png) [@Mgalindo13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mgalindo13)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11415 "2013-06-29T16:31:27Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > He didn’t have to fear for his life, he didn’t pull a gun out to shoot GZ. Even if he did he still wouldn’t have to fear death, just serious injury, as we’ve all been reminded endlessly. You are correct. I should have added “or serious bodily injury”. My apologies. > [@Stoid](#): > > Because he thought he’d start by asking the guy why he was following him, rather than go straight to the police, and that’s what he did. That’s my point, if you fear death, or serious injury, from an individual you generally don’t decide to confront them. > [@Stoid](#): > > Again, nobody is arguing that. He was simply afraid. So, in a manner not at all surprising for a very young man on the cusp between manhood and childhood, decided to step up and be brave and let the guy know he wasn’t a pussy and he he didn’t like being followed. He didn’t _attack_ GZ, he simply asked him a very fair question. I agree, but it appears that his bravado may have lead to him striking another individual. And, at this time, we have no evidence that the other individual initiated any physical contact. > [@Stoid](#): > > Newsflash back: there’s a thousand colors of being an asshole, many of which could reasonably call for a physical response, starting with the one I laid out: GZ playing cop and trying to detain Martin. with Martin already distrustful of GZ, if GZ even reached out, I’d say it would have been fair for Martin to physically react. Perhaps we use the term “asshole” differently. I would never use it the way you did as description of who goes around initiating fights. When someone says asshole, I think of the jerks that cut you off in traffic, Bill Lumberg or the guy screaming at his wife in Denny’s. However, if you meant it as, guys who go around manhandling people… then I digress. I see you chose to completely ignore the the final statement of my post. Is it impossible for you to acknowledge that “probably” is not good enough to convict someone? Your own words, you are not certain. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11416 "2013-06-29T17:01:14Z")
> [@Mgalindo13](#): > > You are correct. I should have added “or serious bodily injury”. My apologies. > > That’s my point, if you fear death, or serious injury, from an individual you generally don’t decide to confront them. Martin wasn’t using deadly force. He had a right to defend himself without the intensity of fear necessary for deadly force. > [@](#): > > I see you chose to completely ignore the the final statement of my post. Is it impossible for you to acknowledge that “probably” is not good enough to convict someone? Your own words, you are not certain. I am not arguing that the state has made the case, I’ve _never_ argued that. I’ve argued the facts themselves and what truth they tell. I’ve already said several times I fully expect an acquittal, but I also fully believe that Zimmerman committed second degree murder and that was before the prosecutor brought that charge. From what I’ve seen and read thus far, I think the state fucked up across the board here, but it’s much too late now to fix. One can only hope that this experience, even with an acquittal, will have been sufficiently unpleasant to deter Mr. Zimmerman from playing cops n’ robbers in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11417 "2013-06-29T17:30:52Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Martin wasn’t using deadly force. He had a right to defend himself without the intensity of fear necessary for deadly force. Based upon what? The fact that he wasn’t successful in killing Zimmerman? Even if Martin was initially the defender, if the tides turned and he became the aggressor, it could still devolve into Zimmerman having a legal right to defend himself. The unfortunate reality here is that there really doesn’t seem to be enough definitive evidence to say that Zimmerman beyond a shadow of a doubt may not have had the right to defend himself. > [@](#): > > I am not arguing that the state has made the case, I’ve _never_ argued that. I’ve argued the facts themselves and what truth they tell. I’ve already said several times I fully expect an acquittal, but I also fully believe that Zimmerman committed second degree murder and that was before the prosecutor brought that charge. I concur, but there is never going to be a fully factual accounting of what took place that night. As evident by the twisted logical leaps and the reliance on “innocence of youth” to support a narrative that satisfies your desire that this case be an example to all wannabe meddlers… > [@](#): > > From what I’ve seen and read thus far, I think the state fucked up across the board here, but it’s much too late now to fix. Anyone capable of separating rational thought from emotional desire should have seen the state had a losing hand from the get go (excepting some blockbuster evidence that never was released to the public). This case is a great lesson. Not in the dangers of playing wannabe cop. Rather it is a great lesson in what we as a people have to be willing to sacrifice and accept in order to maintain a legal system that presumes innocence until proven guilty. Small comfort for Martin’s family, but in the end a good (but sad) outcome for all Americans. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11418 "2013-06-29T17:53:28Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > This case is a great lesson. Not in the dangers of playing wannabe cop. Rather it is a great lesson in what we as a people have to be willing to sacrifice and accept in order to maintain a legal system that presumes innocence until proven guilty. Small comfort for Martin’s family, but in the end a good (but sad) outcome for all Americans. I fully support and believe in the presumption of innocence, but I am appalled that in a situation such as this, where there are no living witnesses to the full incident other than the person responsible for the killing, that anything short of an immediate, thorough and aggressive investigation would ever be acceptable. And that’s definitely not what happened here. Furthermore, I think that in such a case as this, even though the state could have and should have done WAY better, that it is right and proper for the determination of whether this was justifiable use of deadly force to be made by a jury. Only in the clearest of cases should there be anything less. Innocent until and unless proven guilty, but let’s make sure we use the system we have to thoroughly test and probe the facts. I think we owe it to the dead people and the people who are mourning them to do everything we can to determine the truth of how they died. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11419 "2013-06-29T17:56:39Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > From what I’ve seen and read thus far, I think the state fucked up across the board here, but it’s much too late now to fix. I don’t think you can conclude this if you’re using second-hand accounts. This is just the first week, and there is so much spin going on that it’s hard to get an objective assessment of how things are really playing out in the courtroom. The jury’s experience in all likelihood is completely different from spectators. Especially if they are coming at this relatively uninformed. Everyone who has participated in this thread is knowledgeable about the claims that have been made, which means we’re more apt to see significance in certain details and fixate on them inordinately. But for the jury, a lot these details will merit a big friggin’ deal. For instance, the whole issue with how far away they were from the T. Or where Zimmerman’s keys were found in proximity to the T. Or whether or not its reasonable that someone could forget their street address. While the defense tries its best to make testimony kinda sorta conform to Zimmerman’s not-entered-as-evidence-yet narrative about the fight itself, they ignore bigger issues. Like Zimmerman relentlessly following Martin before the fight started. West basically conceded that this happened. But of course, you won’t see anyone on the pro-Z side talk about this, even though for the past year much ado has been made over how Zimmerman was only looking for a street sign. If this jury is fair-minded and reasonable (which is a big “if”), they will probably be mostly focused on big picture things. I think the prosecution’s strategy this week has been to present the big picture story using the crime scene witnesses and first responders. Getting bogged down on tiny details in the beginning means they risk losing the jury’s attention, and its also sends the message that this a complicated case when it isn’t. I don’t know if this is smart strategy in a case like this one, but it doesn’t sound like a stupid one, either. Hopefully in the following weeks, they get more rigorous. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11420 "2013-06-29T20:42:58Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No it doesn’t. The evidence shows that Martin was not frightened of Zimmerman. If Martin were frightened of Zimmerman, he would not have left the safe place that he had reached ‘right by his father’s house’ and gone looking for Zimmerman in order to attack him… Who says it was “safe”? You are in the dark and have no way of knowing whether you are safe or not. Besides, ever hear of the “fight or flight” instinct? Human nature. Old as I am, I would have chosen the first. Why? Because I’ve done it before – lucky to be alive really. Just two years ago I fought two burglars in my house. Result? A broken hand, lots of bruises and tons of legal problems. Of course, I don’t live in Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11421 "2013-06-29T20:46:18Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Who says it was “safe”? You are in the dark and have no way of knowing whether you are safe or not. > > Besides, ever hear of the “fight or flight” instinct? Human nature. Old as I am, I would have chosen the first. Why? Because I’ve done it before – lucky to be alive really. Well, he’d have the opportunity to put a locked door between him and the “creepy-ass cracker”, then phone the police, so probably safer that going back to him and punching him. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11422 "2013-06-29T20:52:04Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Who says it was “safe”? You are in the dark and have no way of knowing whether you are safe or not. According to Dee Dee, Martin was by his father’s house, and said so. Of course he knew it was safe - it was where he came from. > [@](#): > > Besides, ever hear of the “fight or flight” instinct? Human nature. Old as I am, I would have chosen the first. Why? Because I’ve done it before – lucky to be alive really. Well, isn’t that the point? Martin chose first to fly. Then he was safe. Then he chose to go back and fight. He was legally justified to run. He was legally justified to tell Zimmerman to piss off. He was legally justified to do a lot of things. What he chose to do was go looking for Zimmerman, punch him in the face, knock him down, and jump on his chest and pound his head on the sidewalk. That, he was not legally justified in doing. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11423 "2013-06-29T20:55:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > According to Dee Dee, Martin was by his father’s house, and said so. No he didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=570) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=572)