# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 576
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11504 "2013-06-30T19:45:52Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The fact that Martin called Zimmerman a “creepy ass cracker” (repeated in loud voice by “DeeDee” in the courtroom half a dozen times) certainly isn’t helping the prosecution as the jury (mostly of “crackers”) wrestles with who was the racist. Perhaps they shouldn’t reach conclusions based on that utterance (or maybe they should) but you will have a hard time unringing that bell. So you are ceding the “bigger man” point? Or just moving the goalposts? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11505 "2013-06-30T19:47:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I am confident that a jury, presented with the facts that Zimmerman was 20 pounds heavier yet three inches shorter than Martin, will conclude that Zimmerman is more likely to be perceived as the bigger man, especially when neither man is standing. The fact that Zimmerman has gained 100 pounds since he was arrested certainly isn’t helping him as the jury wrestles with who was the bigger man. Perhaps they shouldn’t reach conclusions based on his current appearance, but you will have a hard time unringing that bell. For approximately the seven billionth time “more likely” won’t cut it. Find a witness who saw them, identified them, and said Zimmerman looked bigger (shouldn’t be hard if it’s as obvious as you claim) or drop it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11506 "2013-06-30T19:48:13Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > So you are ceding the “bigger man” point? Or just moving the goalposts? The jury has seen the 7-11 video. They have been told that the clerk in the video is 5-10". They will be told by the defense that Zimmerman is 5-8". That video will be played again, you can be sure, to demonstrate to the jury who “the bigger man” was. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11507 "2013-06-30T19:50:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > For approximately the seven billionth time “more likely” won’t cut it. Yes, it will. You can give the jury all the instructions you want, they will come to conclusions about who is guilty without giving you any clue why, that could be used to mount an appeal. You are simply not operating in the real world if you think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11508 "2013-06-30T19:51:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > The jury has seen the 7-11 video. They have been told that the clerk in the video is 5-10". They will be told by the defense that Zimmerman is 5-8". That video will be played again, you can be sure, to demonstrate to the jury who “the bigger man” was. Bigger is not taller. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11509 "2013-06-30T19:53:33Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Yes, it will. You can give the jury all the instructions you want, they will come to conclusions about who is guilty without giving you any clue why, that could be used to mount an appeal. You are simply not operating in the real world if you think otherwise. If your prosecution strategy is “hope the jury ignore the law” then, well, there’s no real argument possible. I’m hopeful that at least one juror will do it properly, though, and remember that, if they don’t know what happened, he’s not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11510 "2013-06-30T19:54:04Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Bigger is not taller. In the video, it is immediately apparent that Martin is “bigger” than the clerk. And the jury will be told that the clerk is 5-10" whereas Zimmernam is 5-8". Good luck trying to convince the jury Zimmerman was “bigger”. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11511 "2013-06-30T20:05:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > In the video, it is immediately apparent that Martin is “bigger” than the clerk. And the jury will be told that the clerk is 5-10" whereas Zimmernam is 5-8". Good luck trying to convince the jury Zimmerman was “bigger”. Good luck trying to get the prosecution to forget to point out that neither man was standing, so “bigger” could not refer to their relative height. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11512 "2013-06-30T20:11:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Good luck trying to get the prosecution to forget to point out that neither man was standing, so “bigger” could not refer to their relative height. Don’t care what the prosecution thinks. It will be a great argument from prosecution: “Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?” ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11513 "2013-06-30T20:25:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Don’t care what the prosecution thinks. It will be a great argument from prosecution: “Who you gonna believe, me or your lying eyes?” According to friend **Steophan** , unless there is direct testimony identifying Martin as the “bigger man”, the jury is acting illegally to infer it from other evidence. Are you saying he is mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11514 "2013-06-30T20:45:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > According to friend **Steophan** , unless there is direct testimony identifying Martin as the “bigger man”, the jury is acting illegally to infer it from other evidence. Sigh. Please learn to read what’s actually written. It would be illegal for them to convict if they had reasonable doubt that he is guilty. Your claim that the only valid inference is that, when the witness said “bigger” he meant “fatter”, not “taller” is false. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11515 "2013-06-30T20:45:31Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I more-or-less understand the different “spins.” My question is about the specific facts of the altercation. Which of the two was on top, in the prosecutor’s scenario? _Surely they must have a plausible reconstruction of the event in mind to ask jury to convict._ > > I thought (rashly?) that the Martin-on-top-of-Zimmerman altercation was not in dispute, and Manalo’s testimony made me go “Whaaat??!?” Most of the residential witnesses put Zimmerman on top immediately before and after the shooting. John Good is the only who says he saw Martin on top, but then again, he didn’t see who was on top when the gun went off. So it is indeed in dispute whether Martin was on top. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11516 "2013-06-30T20:55:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Sigh. Please learn to read what’s actually written. It would be illegal for them to convict if they had reasonable doubt that he is guilty. Your claim that the only valid inference is that, when the witness said “bigger” he meant “fatter”, not “taller” is false. No it isn’t. If the witness never saw them standing, he could not be talking about who was taller. That is excluded as a valid inference ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11517 "2013-06-30T20:59:20Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Most of the residential witnesses put Zimmerman on top immediately before and after the shooting. John Good is the only who says he saw Martin on top, but then again, he didn’t see who was on top when the gun went off. So it is indeed in dispute whether Martin was on top. Two witnesses can be claimed to have seen Zimmerman on top. One is looney-tunes who also claims that Zimmerman shot Martin in the back. The other one bases her observation on the pictures that she saw of Trayvon Martin when he was 12. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11518 "2013-06-30T21:15:40Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > No it isn’t. If the witness never saw them standing, he could not be talking about who was taller. That is excluded as a valid inference Why do you keep saying that? It’s nonsense. One isn’t suddenly unable to see a significant height difference if people aren’t standing. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11519 "2013-06-30T21:18:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > One isn’t suddenly unable to see a significant height difference if people aren’t standing. Of course one is. It doesn’t make it so just because you stamp your foot and insist otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11520 "2013-06-30T21:37:37Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Of course one is. It doesn’t make it so just because you stamp your foot and insist otherwise. You might as well say you couldn’t tell which one was fatter because you only saw them from the side… It’s absurd, and wrong, and an utterly foolish thing to insist on. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11521 "2013-06-30T21:49:24Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You might as well say you couldn’t tell which one was fatter because you only saw them from the side… It’s absurd, and wrong, and an utterly foolish thing to insist on. Says you. When one of the two men in question is on his back, with the other straddling him, there is no way to tell which is taller when there is only three inches difference to begin with. Bigger means fatter in this case, and the jury can safely conclude that and use it in their judgement. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11522 "2013-06-30T21:58:28Z")
Can I remind everyone throwing around the 185-lb weight for Zimmerman that he weighed in at about 205 at his doctor’s appointment the day after the shooting? So, the weight difference between the two was more like 40 pounds. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2013, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11523 "2013-06-30T21:58:32Z")
I have to say I’m really blown away by the size debate. Wow. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=575) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=577)