# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 583
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11644 "2013-07-02T15:30:31Z")
That’s good enough for me. They can end the trial now. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11645 "2013-07-02T16:00:49Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It would still puzzle me greatly as to why he would choose to discard a weapon before assaulting someone. Are you familiar with slim jims? They are thin and flexible to fit past the weather seal. Often made from a thin perhaps one inch wide strip of spring steel. Slightly more effective than a fly swatted as a weapon. FYI not just for cars. Can also be used to jimmy some older style window locks. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11646 "2013-07-02T16:04:50Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > As you may recall, the initial failure of the cops to properly investigate or charge the case was the reason this became a news story and brought to light racial disparities in Sanford so yeah, maybe he is. In any case, I prefer to rely on the objective facts that show Zimmerman is lying, namely the medical impossibilities in his story, rather than polling people on what their mood rings say. Any chance you could share those “objective facts”, rather than a bit of speculation that’s been discredited by, among others, the _prosecution_ witnesses in this case? Also, the “objective facts” that show he was lying, and not mistaken or confused, in the event that his account was false? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11647 "2013-07-02T16:13:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Also, the “objective facts” that show he was lying, and not mistaken or confused, in the event that his account was false? The fact that the lead investigator doesn’t think Zimmerman was lying is proof that he was lying because, racism. Obvious, not sure why you’d have to even ask. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11648 "2013-07-02T16:31:50Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Rachel Jeantel testified Zimmerman assaulted Martin. RJ also admitted that she couldn’t be sure what actually happened because she wasn’t there (or something to that effect). ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11649 "2013-07-02T16:44:48Z")
> [@hmarvin](#): > > Go listen to the trial. They found a slim jim at the crime scene. Something that hadn’t been revealed before. They found a slim jim in the bushes near one of the residences. It is not linked to Trayvon to my knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11650 "2013-07-02T16:46:34Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > As you may recall, the initial failure of the cops to properly investigate or charge the case was the reason this became a news story and brought to light racial disparities in Sanford so yeah, maybe he is. In any case, I prefer to rely on the objective facts that show Zimmerman is lying, namely the medical impossibilities in his story, rather than polling people on what their mood rings say. There are no medical impossibilities in his story. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11651 "2013-07-02T17:39:27Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > They found a slim jim in the bushes near one of the residences. It is not linked to Trayvon to my knowledge. IIRC it was noted that there was some construction or something going on at the site of where the object was found. I wasn’t listening carefully, but I think that was the gist of the comment that I heard. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11652 "2013-07-02T17:55:46Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > IIRC it was noted that there was some construction or something going on at the site of where the object was found. I wasn’t listening carefully, but I think that was the gist of the comment that I heard. A [slim jim](http://www.lockpickshop.com/images/products/ez-jim.jpg) is specifically designed to break into a car. It has no construction use unless a contractor locks himself out and then he has to be carrying it around. It was surely tossed into the bushes by a burglar but unless they have Martin’s prints on them or someone saw him carrying it then it shouldn’t be mentioned in court IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11653 "2013-07-02T17:55:51Z")
Prove it didn’t come from Zimmerman. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11654 "2013-07-02T17:58:14Z")
Did you mean construction workers just happened to find it? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11655 "2013-07-02T18:12:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Prove it didn’t come from Zimmerman. > > Regards, > Shodan If you can’t prove otherwise, Zimmerman used it to inflict injuries on himself so he could murder Martin, and pretend to kill him in self defence. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11656 "2013-07-02T18:27:36Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > +1. Many of the specific words he used in his interviews with police seem very deliberately chosen to build a self defense case. “I was in fear for my life.” “He reached for my gun.” “I was defending myself and I shot him.” Those are also the parts of his story where he gets the most vague, and suddenly can’t remember, but he’s more than happy to provide ample details to the parts of the story that don’t incriminate him in any way. > > I think he realized right away that he had screwed up and immediately started painting this scenario that’s well practiced among many CCW permit holders. The best lies are the ones that are mostly the truth, so he can be 99% honest (he was on top of me and my jacket came up) and just inject a little lie to help his story (and I felt his arm move across my body). This this this this. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11657 "2013-07-02T18:37:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > He can certainly claim that the jury should not find them to be serious. He needs to stop claiming that the jury HAS to find them not serious. Thank you. That’s among my bigger irritations with the debate here, people saying what HAS to be determined by the jury one way or another. That’s why I posted all that stuff about inferences and jury instructions in the other thread. Jurors are the ones who get to decide, and they have the legal right (and duty!) to do a whole lotta thinking for themselves about what the evidence does and doesn’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt. It is they who are the potential doubters, they who must decide if they have had something proven to them. > [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Did he get it when he pointed the gun at Martin and Martin tried to defend himself? > Did he enhance his bloody nose overnight to bolster self-defense? > Was he in an inconsequential street fight that did not justify lethal self-defense, and that a jury probably would not have found justifying, even if a broken nose is grounds for a jury to be ABLE to do so? > Did he get the broken nose, push Martin off of him, and then shoot him after the threat had passed? > > When you only have the word of someone who has repeatedly lied about the fight to go on to assert that the broken nose was from an unprovoked, escalating attack that he could only escape by lethal force, his credibility matters, the alternate explanations need to be examined, and the mere fact of the broken nose proves nothing. Exactly. This wholesale “X, therefore Y (as described by someone who has almost no credibility and every reason to lie) is the only possible reality that anyone can even consider!” is so tiresome… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11658 "2013-07-02T18:41:40Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Exactly. This wholesale “X, therefore Y (as described by someone who has almost no credibility and every reason to lie) is the only possible reality that anyone can even consider!” is so tiresome… Is that anything like… > [@Stoid](#): > > The only way you can buy Zimmerman is if you check your brain at the door. ? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11659 "2013-07-02T18:42:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > (as described by someone who has almost no credibility and every reason to lie) Shouldn’t you leave that for the jury to decide, rather than stating it as fact? Hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11660 "2013-07-02T18:48:34Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Exactly. This wholesale “X, therefore Y (as described by someone who has almost no credibility and every reason to lie) is the only possible reality that anyone can even consider!” is so tiresome… I think it isn’t that it has to be considered th only possible reality, but that in th context of the trial it is going to be difficult to prove it isn’t a reasonable possibility. And there lies the problem. Those attempting to show guilt have to present a pretty air tight case. Those that think there isn’t enough evidence to prove guilt can sit back and poke holes. They don’t need to show proof of innocence. Like the prosecution, those siding that the crime of second degree murder was committed, have an uphill battle in terms of winning the argument. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11661 "2013-07-02T18:53:57Z")
The first actual MD has testified. [http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Medical-examiner-says-Zimmerman-s-injuries-minor-4641973.php](http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Medical-examiner-says-Zimmerman-s-injuries-minor-4641973.php) > [@](#): > > Rao says the injuries to Zimmerman’s head don’t reflect that his head was being slammed with great force into a sidewalk as he claims. Gee. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11662 "2013-07-02T19:08:46Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The first actual MD has testified. > > [http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Medical-examiner-says-Zimmerman-s-injuries-minor-4641973.php](http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Medical-examiner-says-Zimmerman-s-injuries-minor-4641973.php) > > Gee. > **[More complaints on Medical Examiner Valerie Rao](https://www.news4jax.com/news/more-complaints-on-jacksonville-medical-examiner-dr-valerie-rao/-/475880/20640256/-/rurvpcz/-/index.html)** > > Jacksonville Medical Examiner Valerie Rao has been the subject of recurring complaints from her co-workers dating back to 2009. According to letters sent to the the city, "Rao has been seen touching cadavers with her bare hands, washing her feet... I would imagine that the defense might seek to impeach her with some of the information contained at that link. And – did she actually examine Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11663 "2013-07-02T19:13:51Z")
From your link: > [@](#): > > The documents from the 2003 Commission meeting also specified that virtually all the complaints about Rao concerned her “administrative skills”, not her “abilities as a forensic pathologist.” She didn’t actually examine Zimmerman, only looked at photographs. I thought she did a very good job of keeping O’Mara on his toes. Defense didn’t get into her past at all, likely because attacking her on ‘administrative skills’ vs actual forensic skills probably would look to the jury like they were scared of her testimony. Was she dismissed as a witness or can the defense call her back? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=582) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=584)