# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 585
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11684 "2013-07-02T20:16:38Z")
Regarding the meaning of “felt,” “explode,” and “past tense,” I think you’ve proven that conclusion nicely without any help from me regarding your own comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11685 "2013-07-02T20:18:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Regarding the meaning of “felt,” “explode,” and “past tense,” I think you’ve proven that conclusion nicely without any help from me regarding your own comprehension. Do you really not get the difference between a statement about the past and the future? That is, he’s referring in the past tense to a past prediction about then future events. I guess it is too complicated for you… ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11686 "2013-07-02T20:22:15Z")
So to review this incredible contortion of language: when asked to describe the experience of the fight itself, Zimmerman, in the midst of relaying his claim about having his head bashed into the sidewalk, said “It felt like my head was going to explode. I thought I was going to lose consciousness.” By this he did not mean “the pain in my head was tremendous.” Instead, he stopped recounting the chronological sequence of events, expressed his fear that Trayvon Martin was going to literally implant dynamite into his skull and detonate it and that is why he shot him, then, after detouring out of his first-person chronological narrative for all of nine words of self-defense theory, immediately returned to it to describe his sensation of impending unconsciousness. Is this, honestly, what you believe George Zimmerman was saying when he used that expression? This doesn’t even reflect on him beyond the original point about his credibility in describing the incident. It’s purely about his defenders’ absolutely incredible willingness to impart secret meanings, uses of language and behavior no Earth-human has ever engaged in before, and exceptions to the laws of biology and physics, to the happenings of this case. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11687 "2013-07-02T20:22:16Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > And, as we are now seeing in line with what I’ve been trying to get you to comprehend for days, Zimmerman can’t be telling the truth, because his injuries were trivial. > > Yes, getting your head slammed into concrete will make it feel like it is going to explode and cause grievous bodily harm. But Zimmerman’s head wasn’t slammed into concrete. We know that because he doesn’t having the bruising, the wounds to the skull, or the neurological effects that this would cause. The MD explained this on the stand. The injuries are consistent with scraping his head on the ground while rolling around in a fight far less intense than what he claimed. > > And once more we’re at physical reality not matching Zimmerman’s story, and Zimmerman thus having no credibility. What he claims happened and what he claims his head felt like cannot be truthful statements. The witness was forced to admit that she could not discount the injuries as to 4 strikes into the concrete. This was the Prosecutions witness and not Defense’s witness. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11688 "2013-07-02T20:29:07Z")
Only if the impact with the concrete was so minor as to cause no evidence on his skull. That doesn’t help Zimmerman’s credibility on the “felt like my head was going to explode” point (continuing to leave alone the issue of reasonable fear of harm). They also discussed the punches to the face. She said most likely it was 1. The defense got her up to “maybe 2.” Where’s the rest of the “25 to 30” punches to the face that Zimmerman claims? Off with the looking into houses and all the other fantasy elements of his story, I presume. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11689 "2013-07-02T20:31:26Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > They also discussed the punches to the face. She said most likely it was 1. The defense got her up to “maybe 2.” Wrong. You’re making it up (again, just like the “spread eagle” thing). She said could be one. She never said it was “most likely” it was one. When asked if it could be 2, she said it could be. When asked if it could be 3, she said it could be. When asked if it could be 4, she said it could be. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11690 "2013-07-02T20:36:11Z")
I’m looking at a news summary and not a transcript. I do see another story where her quote upon being asked if it was “three or four” punches is “That’s not my opinion but it is possible.” Granting that, we still have The Case of the 21 Missing Punches, at a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11691 "2013-07-02T20:41:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Granting that, we still have The Case of the 21 Missing Punches, at a minimum. No, we don’t. You are making things up again. Oh, for some reason you seem to have overlooked my question. Why are you so sure he was lying and not mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11692 "2013-07-02T20:42:31Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Only if the impact with the concrete was so minor as to cause no evidence on his skull. That doesn’t help Zimmerman’s credibility on the “felt like my head was going to explode” point (continuing to leave alone the issue of reasonable fear of harm). > > They also discussed the punches to the face. She said most likely it was 1. The defense got her up to “maybe 2.” Where’s the rest of the “25 to 30” punches to the face that Zimmerman claims? Off with the looking into houses and all the other fantasy elements of his story, I presume. Again, that was the STATE’S witness and she was forced to agree with the Defense. You haven’t heard from the Defense’s witness yet. There is already a witness that described Martin’s behavior as that of an MMA fight. With 38 seconds of phone call screams plus what happened before the call that’s a significant amount of time involved beating someone. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11693 "2013-07-02T20:43:33Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Can we get some clarification. Does one actually have to have received life threatening injuries in order to use deadly force in defending yourself according the Florida law? No. One must simply be in reasonable fear of either death or serious bodily injury. A broken nose qualifies as serious bodily injury, as a matter of law. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11694 "2013-07-02T20:45:57Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > I’m claiming that a number of light impacts are in direct opposition to Martin’s testimony that his head was slammed so hard it was like his head was ‘going to explode’ and that he was scared he was going to ‘lose conciousness’, and I’m claiming that such light impact would suggest he wasn’t completely helpless in the struggle and thus would not have a reasonable fear of death or bodily harm. How about the broken nose? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11695 "2013-07-02T20:46:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, we don’t. You are making things up again. What are you disputing? Zimmerman asserts that he was punched in the face “25 to 30 times.” His statement of that was discussed just over the last two days in Serino’s testimony. The possibility that he may have been punched a maximum of 4 times leaves a huge gap. Or are you refusing to agree that 25 minus 4 equals 21? Given Team Zimmerman’s obstinacy on other basic points of how the real world operates throughout this thread, that would hardly surprise me. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11696 "2013-07-02T20:51:27Z")
**C. Robot** , my friend, I think you focus too much on the wrong thing. Whatever the punch number and degree of injury, that argument accepts that most of _the rest_ of what he has said is true, and that’s where my problem lies. Here’s something that doesn’t get talked about much at all: witnesses have only reported seeing the two before the shot and after. Before the shot, there is some question about who was on top and/or if only one party was on top the entire time. After the shot, the only thing any witness has reported seeing that included both of them still on the ground is GZ on top Martin’s back. There is no reason to accept that the actual shot occurred where and when it did with the two positioned as GZ claims, because no one saw them at the moment of the shot. Nor did anyone see the moment when GZ shifted from on his back to any other position. But since no one DID see that incredibly important few seconds/minute?, it’s EXTREMELY important to examine all the forensic evidence as rigorously as human science is able to see if there’s anything there that either confirms or undermines Zimmerman’s account. If (for instance, just out of the hat, haven’t looked at the forensic stuff in a few days and didn’t memorize, so I’m just throwing this out as a “what if” example of how it would change the picture) the forensic report stated that the trajectory/stippling/powder, whatever-dunno-im-not-a-forensics-expert was not consistent with the story that GZ tells and in fact could only be consistent with a scenario where (again FOR INSTANCE, not saying this is it so save your breath, Team Zimmerman!) the two were at least x distance apart and Martin was positioned X… fill in the blank. In other words, it’s abundantly obvious that if GZ was afraid he can sell it as sufficiently so if the only thing we ever get to know is the fact that he had some injuries. Absolutely reasonable doubt if that’s the make-or-break evidence. So why argue about it? Some people are (clearly) going to see it as more than sufficient and the law doesn’t disagree. So just concede THAT aspect of the evidence and law. But there’s more than that to look at. I sure hope the prosecution has made sure to get the best evidence they possibly can to make sure it does get included. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11697 "2013-07-02T20:51:32Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What are you disputing? Zimmerman asserts that he was punched in the face “25 to 30 times.” His statement of that was discussed just over the last two days in Serino’s testimony. The possibility that he may have been punched a maximum of 4 times leaves a huge gap. > > Or are you refusing to agree that 25 minus 4 equals 21? Given Team Zimmerman’s obstinacy on other basic points of how the real world operates throughout this thread, that would hardly surprise me. I think Zimmerman either deliberately or inadvertently overstated the number of blows. So what? He’s still the one who got the beat down. I can’t follow the logic you’re trying to lay out, how this somehow means Zimmerman must not have been acting in self defense, when he had a broken nose and the back of his head bashed into the sidewalk, how ever many @#$%ing times it was. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11698 "2013-07-02T20:52:33Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What are you disputing? Zimmerman asserts that he was punched in the face “25 to 30 times.” I wanted to check your claim. Searched the transcripts. Couldn’t find it. Maybe you can quote from a transcript of one of Zimmerman’s interviews where you found the “25 to 30 times”? The transcript please, not someone’s hearsay about it. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11699 "2013-07-02T20:56:10Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > I think Zimmerman either deliberately or inadvertently overstated the number of blows. So what? He’s still the one who got the beat down. I can’t follow the logic you’re trying to lay out, how this somehow means Zimmerman must not have been acting in self defense, when he had a broken nose and the back of his head bashed into the sidewalk, how ever many @#$%ing times it was. It means Zimmerman is not credible because he’s lying (he wasn’t “bashed into” the sidewalk, he scraped against it, that’s what his injuries show). What do we know about the circumstances of the broken nose, the gunshot, or anything that went on that night if Zimmerman is lying? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11700 "2013-07-02T20:56:55Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > There is no reason to accept that the actual shot occurred where and when it did with the two positioned as GZ claims, because no one saw them at the moment of the shot. Nor did anyone see the moment when GZ shifted from on his back to any other position. And there **IS** reason to doubt his claim, because it is not very believable, nor is it consistent, and it includes one of his weirdest and most suspicious lies, the arm spreading. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11701 "2013-07-02T20:57:47Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What are you disputing? Zimmerman asserts that he was punched in the face “25 to 30 times.” I’m reasonably sure he was not punched 25 times. If he said that, I agree he was either outright lying, or confused. Did he say that, though? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11702 "2013-07-02T21:00:05Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > What are you disputing? Zimmerman asserts that he was punched in the face “25 to 30 times.” His statement of that was discussed just over the last two days in Serino’s testimony. The possibility that he may have been punched a maximum of 4 times leaves a huge gap. Cite for any claim that the maximum amount of times he could have been punched is 4? > [@](#): > > Or are you refusing to agree that 25 minus 4 equals 21? Given Team Zimmerman’s obstinacy on other basic points of how the real world operates throughout this thread, that would hardly surprise me. Why are you obstinately refusing to answer the simple question why you are so sure Zimmerman is lying, and not confused or mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11703 "2013-07-02T21:03:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I wanted to check your claim. Searched the transcripts. Couldn’t find it. Maybe you can quote from a transcript of one of Zimmerman’s interviews where you found the “25 to 30 times”? The transcript please, not someone’s hearsay about it. He made the statement on the scene and it was referenced by Serino in the first interview and in his testimony yesterday with no dispute from Zimmerman or his attorneys. No one from his camp has backed off of it. Is this where we are now, after 11,000 posts of “you absolutely can get punched in the face 25 to 30 times by a crazed MMA drug-dealing thug who was eight feet tall and have only a bloody nose to show for it, anyone who says different is making things up?” Just a quick backpedal to “he never said he was punched in the face 25 to 30 times” at the very moment when the medical testimony is beginning? Another one of those strange coincidences like Zimmerman forgetting the name of a street he drives on every day, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=584) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=586)