# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 597
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11924 "2013-07-09T05:48:26Z")
Door hinge, what do you mean, what do I mean? Im aware there were some burglaries there, my question was specifically about TM, as we now all know, he wasnt engaged in anything more suspicious than being a high school kid walking in his neighborhood. He had a bag of skittles in his pocket. Gz was the suspicious one, and as it turns out, after he so eagerly volunteered to patrol around in his car, a boy with nothing more than a bag of candy in his pocket ends up dead and gz has a couple very minor injuries, the superficial cut on his head didnt even require a bandaid. The only suspicious person prowling around that day was gz ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11925 "2013-07-09T05:50:27Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Earlier today I drove past a junior college and saw a number of 18 to 22 yr old kids, some men, **weating** hoodies, in a upper middle class area, luckily for them gz wasnt driving by, or we would have a few less chemistry and engineering students around You seem to have missed an “r” there… and maybe in your username as well. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11926 "2013-07-09T05:52:45Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Earlier today I drove past a junior college and saw a number of 18 to 22 yr old kids, some men, weating hoodies, in a upper middle class area, luckily for them gz wasnt driving by, or we would have a few less chemistry and engineering students around In your scenario, who do you figure would throw the first punch? ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11927 "2013-07-09T06:12:24Z")
Gz was the aggressor, and this caused tm to be fearful. Have some of you forgotten about all how kids are told to watch out for and avoid strangers? Anyone with some common sense would feel fearful if a stranger was following them in a car, when all theyre doing is walking home. What concerns me much more than gzs boo boos is TMs mortal gunshot wound ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11928 "2013-07-09T06:48:13Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Your question is if I were in the role of gz would I identify myself? Of course, what kind of question is that? Gz took on the role of being a neighborhood watch captain, he was not acting " on his own" he was acting on behalf of the neighborhood watch…of course it was his responsibility to identify himself. cite this is a function of a neighborhood watch? The reason the dispatcher suggested to Zimmerman that following wasn’t necessary is that they don’t want them to come in contact with the suspicious person. > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Since we know that as it turned out Trayvon was not engaged in any suspicious or criminal activity, gzs claim he felt threatened is his excuse for murder… he felt threatened because he was being beaten with a resulting struggle for the gun. Beating someone is against the law. > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Trayvon was a kid, walking home in his neighborhood, where is the suspicious activity? Earlier today I drove past a junior college and saw a number of 18 to 22 yr old kids, some men, weating hoodies, in a upper middle class area, luckily for them gz wasnt driving by, or we would have a few less chemistry and engineering students around Trayvon was 6 feet tall and enjoyed street fighting. The suspicious activity was his proximity to the houses (he was standng in a yard looking around). A few years back I saw a kid just standing on the sidewalk. No hoodie. I called the police and stopped a car theft. Everybody still alive. Prior to that I was challenged very close to where this kid was standing. Everybody still alive. The common denominator is that nobody attacked anybody. It’s proper to call the police when suspicious activity is seen. In the same neighborhood Martin was in there were a number of teenager thieves caught by the police because someone thought their behavior was suspicious. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11929 "2013-07-09T06:54:49Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Gz was the aggressor, and this caused tm to be fearful. Have some of you forgotten about all how kids are told to watch out for and avoid strangers? Anyone with some common sense would feel fearful if a stranger was following them in a car, when all theyre doing is walking home. What concerns me much more than gzs boo boos is TMs mortal gunshot wound There is no physical evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. The aggressor would be the person who went out of his way to confront the other and that would be Martin. He then went on the beat Zimmerman. This is a matter of record. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11930 "2013-07-09T07:17:11Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > To discount this evidence means you believe he created a lie ahead of time without knowing what evidence was available to disprove it. Speaking of lies, could you please complete your answer to my question? > [@Stoid](#): > > That is certainly excellent proof. > > So should I take that to mean that an audio visual media capture of facts different than those put forth in the lie is the only thing you will accept as sufficiently compelling to be considered proof of the lie? Or will you also accept other kinds of evidence as well? And if so, can you say what they are? > > And in the same vein, do you have different standards of proof for different kinds of things? In other words, will you only accept that a person has been proven to have told a lie by an audio visual recording, but to prove something else, something unrelated to proving or disproving someone’s truthfulness, you will accept different kinds of evidence? > > Again, I am asking these questions with complete sincerity because I am trying to understand your point of view. > > Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11931 "2013-07-09T07:19:03Z")
Magiver, I cannot argue with craziness…the things you are stating are all the opposite of what occured. Trayvon was a highschool kid, walking home in his neighborhood, he had a dammed bag of skittles. He was as we now know not engaged in anything criminal or suspicious, he was walking. Gz followed him without identifying himself as neighborhood watch, Trayvon is in a coffin, gz got a couple superficial ouchies. The only suspucious activity was that of gz. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11932 "2013-07-09T07:36:33Z")
Gz apparently has had problems with aggression in his not so distant past , resisting arrest and battery of a cop, as well as a restraining order filed by his ex girlfriend for domestic.violence, whom she says had a proclivity towards aggression, being territorial, road rage and violence, which caused her to end it and file a restraining order ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11933 "2013-07-09T07:57:41Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Ok. I ask because one thing that TV shows, movies, and the 911 call (as cell phones have a peak volume) fail to convey is that guns, short-barreled guns in particular, are fucking _ **loud** _. > > One notion I’ve heard, from you and from others, is that if the screams on the 911 call are from Zimmerman, why do they end right when the shot is fired? Something that hasn’t been pointed out, or at least not adequately, is the role a loud gunshot might play. Such an event, with earsplitting noise and a blinding flash (something else made worse by a short barrel), could well be shocking and unnerving enough on its own to account for the screaming ending. And yet, Zimmerman says he still heard Martin utter his bad-guy death speech ‘you got me’ well enough. Just a wild-ass guess here, but one would think that having a bullet pierce your lung and lodge in your heart probably prevents one from talking real loud… (and how did Zimmerman hear Martin say ‘you’re going to die tonight motherfucker’ if he was screaming for help the whole time?) Far from being ‘shocked and un-nerved’, Zimmerman - who, remember, says he didn’t think his shot hit Martin - was alert and quick-thinking enough that he immediately stopped screaming, got up, jumped on top of Martin - five seconds ago, he was scared for his very life that this same guy was going to kill him - and says he moved Martin’s his hands away from his body ‘because he felt like Martin had something in his hands’. Now, the plural of anecdote is not data, but: I’ve been afraid for my life in a hostile situation only once in my life, and I didn’t go from practically crapping my pants and afraid for my life, to regular ol’ quick-thinking me in the span of a few seconds, even after I was 100% sure the threat was over. And Zimmerman did not know the threat was over, according to his own statement (‘I didn’t think my shot hit him!’). I doubt any un-trained civilian would go from ‘shit I’m going to die’ to ‘ok all cool now better make sure this guy doesn’t have a rock in his hands’ in the span of three seconds. Far from being dazed and confused from a beating and a really loud gun shot, Zimmerman, according to his own statements, acted with remarkable quickness and alertness. Can’t have it both ways - either he’s lying about his actions, or he did not have a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11934 "2013-07-09T08:01:40Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no physical evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. The aggressor would be the person who went out of his way to confront the other and that would be Martin. What is aggressive about asking someone why they are following you? > [@](#): > > He then went on the beat Zimmerman. This is a matter of record. It is a matter of record only in the sense that there is a record of Zimmerman claiming he was beaten. No one else, not even Good, said Trayon “beat” Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11935 "2013-07-09T08:04:36Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Gz apparently has had problems with aggression in his not so distant past , resisting arrest and battery of a cop, as well as a restraining order filed by his ex girlfriend for domestic.violence, whom she says had a proclivity towards aggression, being territorial, road rage and violence, which caused her to end it and file a restraining order Oh tollhouse, none of that means anything… GZ was a perfectly normal, unremarkable person doing perfectly normal, unremarkable things and he was just being a good neighbor. Don’t forget that Trayvon wanted to be a tough guy so Zimmerman was right to suspect him…poor George, having his life all turned upside down by that punk who had the gall to force Zimmy to kill him. Asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11936 "2013-07-09T08:06:16Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And yet, Zimmerman says he still heard Martin utter his bad-guy death speech ‘you got me’ well enough. Just a wild-ass guess here, but one would think that having a bullet pierce your lung and lodge in your heart probably prevents one from talking real loud… (and how did Zimmerman hear Martin say ‘you’re going to die tonight motherfucker’ if he was screaming for help the whole time?) > > Far from being ‘shocked and un-nerved’, Zimmerman - who, remember, says he didn’t think his shot hit Martin - was alert and quick-thinking enough that he immediately stopped screaming, got up, jumped on top of Martin - five seconds ago, he was scared for his very life that this same guy was going to kill him - and says he moved Martin’s his hands away from his body ‘because he felt like Martin had something in his hands’. > > Now, the plural of anecdote is not data, but: I’ve been afraid for my life in a hostile situation only once in my life, and I didn’t go from practically crapping my pants and afraid for my life, to regular ol’ quick-thinking me in the span of a few seconds, even after I was 100% sure the threat was over. And Zimmerman did not know the threat was over, according to his own statement (‘I didn’t think my shot hit him!’). I doubt any un-trained civilian would go from ‘shit I’m going to die’ to ‘ok all cool now better make sure this guy doesn’t have a rock in his hands’ in the span of three seconds. > > Far from being dazed and confused from a beating and a really loud gun shot, Zimmerman, according to his own statements, acted with remarkable quickness and alertness. Can’t have it both ways - either he’s lying about his actions, or he did not have a reasonable fear of death or grave bodily injury. Or he didn’t think the shot KILLED him. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11937 "2013-07-09T08:16:58Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Trayvon was 6 feet tall Actually he was 5’11" and a skinny 5’11". Here’s a [picture of him](http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/graphics/tm1.jpg)9 days before he died. > [@Magiver](#): > > enjoyed street fighting. :rolleyes: > [@Magiver](#): > > The suspicious activity was his proximity to the houses (he was standng in a yard looking around). :rolleyes:His ‘suspicious activity’ was walking through a very well-known cut-through into the community? In other words, you’re saying his suspicious activity was ‘walking while black’. > [@Magiver](#): > > A few years back I saw a kid just standing on the sidewalk. No hoodie. I called the police and stopped a car theft. I guess the cops got there just as he was trying to jack the car? Did you testify in court? How long was the guy in jail for? But - just a guess here, but maybe the reason ‘everybody is still alive’ is because, at the very least, you didn’t follow him for a quarter of a mile, then chase him on foot while carrying a gun? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11938 "2013-07-09T08:17:03Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no physical evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Also, depends on how you define “aggressor” and there’s also no physical evidence that Trayvon was the aggressor. Aggressor means the person who initiated the conflict. Setting aside the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor by following Martin, there is no physical evidence to prove which person did anything physical to initiate the altercation between them. None. None to prove either one was the aggressor. Zero. We do have a little bit of witness testimony suggesting that it was Zimmerman from what she heard on the phone, but not very reliable. And that’s it. Nothing else. Any determination of who acted first has to be a process of reasoning, could lead to either, and may still leave an intelligent and thoughtful person without a strong belief either way. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11939 "2013-07-09T08:36:09Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > There is no physical evidence that Zimmerman was the aggressor. Also, depends on how you define “aggressor” and there’s also no physical evidence that Trayvon was the aggressor. Aggressor means the person who initiated the conflict. Setting aside the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor by following Martin, there is no physical evidence to prove which person did anything physical to initiate the altercation between them. None. None to prove either one was the aggressor. Zero. We do have a little bit of witness testimony suggesting that it was Zimmerman from what she heard on the phone, but not very reliable. And that’s it. Nothing else. Any determination of who acted first has to be a process of reasoning, could lead to either, and may still leave an intelligent and thoughtful person without a strong belief either way. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11940 "2013-07-09T09:12:54Z")
… ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11941 "2013-07-09T09:25:32Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Or he didn’t think the shot KILLED him. Zimmerman is quite clear in his statements that he didn’t think his shot ‘hit’ Martin. Which is odd considering that in another statement he said he ‘aimed’ and fired. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11942 "2013-07-09T09:52:46Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Oh tollhouse, none of that means anything… GZ was a perfectly normal, unremarkable person doing perfectly normal, unremarkable things and he was just being a good neighbor. Don’t forget that Trayvon wanted to be a tough guy so Zimmerman was right to suspect him…poor George, having his life all turned upside down by that punk who had the gall to force Zimmy to kill him. Asshole. That is almost exactly what happened. Zimmerman was dong what people should, calling the police about suspicious activity, when he was attacked and defended himself. The sole responsibility for the violence, based on the evidence, was Martin’s. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/11943 "2013-07-09T11:14:42Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > In your scenario, who do you figure would throw the first punch? TM threw the first punch according to GZ only. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=596) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=598)