# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 601
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12004 "2013-07-09T19:32:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > [Link.](http://pix11.com/2013/06/27/rachel-jeantel-tells-zimmerman-defense-lawyer-thats-real-retarded-sir/#axzz2YZuCsJ66) > > “Hearing a little bit” is a far cry from “yelling,” isn’t it? No means no, regardless of how loud you say it, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12005 "2013-07-09T19:35:59Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > That’s my point…people are clinging to this tenuous claim that because it is always legal in the abstract to chase after people (which is a debatable claim at best), the fact that Zimmerman did so (and he did, unless you believe in magic) means absolutely nothing in trying to figure out the factual or legal circumstances of the fight. The whole thing is a chain of bad logic and category errors; there are any number of otherwise legal things that are evidence of a person’s mental state or suggestive of what may have happened. > > I am trying to show that the statement that Zimmerman chasing Martin is irrelevant is laughable by positing a role-reversal: the posters in question are walking home tonight, after dark, in a neighborhood they were invited to be in, when suddenly someone (anyone at all, but just to drive the point home, let’s say someone who embodies everything they fear about Trayvon Martin’s physical appearance) begins, very obviously, to follow them. > > Their argument is: > > 1. this is, unambiguously, legal, regardless of any circumstances or motives whatsoever > 2. because it is legal, they are not justified in feeling threatened by it > 3. if the situation ends in a physical confrontation, the fact that the person who followed them was the one who caused a confrontational relationship between the two parties is completely irrelevant to any aspect of the confrontation whatsoever, including figuring out who was more likely to have thrown the first punch or who is legally in the wrong for anything that occurred > > As usual, the argument, when spelled out, looks as ridiculous as it is. I apologize, I took your statement literally. I agree. Your statement was not ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12006 "2013-07-09T19:55:25Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > No means no, regardless of how loud you say it, doesn’t it? Sure. But yelling indicates something different from “a little bit” of speech. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12007 "2013-07-09T19:56:49Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > No means no, regardless of how loud you say it, doesn’t it? Mr. Pookie, I think he wants the volume louder for it to count ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12008 "2013-07-09T20:01:23Z")
She clearly heard him say " get off"…enough said…in a rape case all a person has to say is “no” … ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12009 "2013-07-09T20:01:55Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Their argument is: > > 1. this is, unambiguously, legal, regardless of any circumstances or motives whatsoever > 2. because it is legal, they are not justified in feeling threatened by it > 3. if the situation ends in a physical confrontation, the fact that the person who followed them was the one who caused a confrontational relationship between the two parties is completely irrelevant to any aspect of the confrontation whatsoever, including figuring out who was more likely to have thrown the first punch or who is legally in the wrong for anything that occurred. > > As usual, the argument, when spelled out, looks as ridiculous as it is. Actually it looks very much like a strawman argument, badly expressed and rather thoroughly missing the point. A better expression of the logic is [ol] [li]Following someone is legal. (That part is nearly correct.)[/li][li]You can feel any way you want about being followed. Since it is legal, however, the standard is how a reasonable person would feel and react.[/li][li]If the situation ends in a physical confrontation, because the pursuit (to the extent that it occurred) was legal, the one who caused a confrontational relationship is the person who first violated the law, by throwing the first punch or otherwise putting himself legally in the wrong.[/ol][/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12010 "2013-07-09T20:07:30Z")
In her deposition, Ms. Jeantel said she “could have” heard Trayvon saying "get off, get off a little bit, but a year later she’s positive that she heard it? You’d be skeptical if it was a witness that supported Zimmerman, I bet. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12011 "2013-07-09T20:19:49Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Mr. Pookie, I think he wants the volume louder for it to count Are you still here? How about an answer to my question: do you now acknowledge you were wrong when you said that Traafe was Zimmerman’s only friend? ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12012 "2013-07-09T20:38:26Z")
You seem to be kind of ocd, obsessing over repeating the same thing over and over, I have already replied several times and am not going to feed into your anxious need to repeatedly ask and ask until you somehow hear what you want to hear. I ALREADY ANSWERED, let that question rest in peace ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12013 "2013-07-09T20:40:32Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > You seem to be kind of ocd, obsessing over repeating the same thing over and over, I have already replied several times and am not going to feed into your anxious need to repeatedly ask and ask until you somehow hear what you want to hear. I ALREADY ANSWERED, let that question rest in peace No, you haven’t answered. You have replied, but you’ve never admitted you were wrong. You’ve dodged the issue. And you still are. So how about it – were you wrong when you said Traafe was Zimmerman’s only friend? ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12014 "2013-07-09T20:43:40Z")
Don’t feed the Tollhouse. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12015 "2013-07-09T20:45:22Z")
Any thoughts anyone on how the prosecutor De la Rionda did in cross exam of Dimaio? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12016 "2013-07-09T20:47:05Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Any thoughts anyone on how the prosecutor De la Rionda did in cross exam of Dimaio? He didn’t ask him whether you were wrong about Zimmerman having only one friend, that’s for sure. Were you? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12017 "2013-07-09T20:51:13Z")
No offense, I hope, **Bricker** , but don’t you think you’ve made your point by now? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12018 "2013-07-09T20:58:47Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No offense, I hope, **Bricker** , but don’t you think you’ve made your point by now? > > Regards, > Shodan If I had, he would have answered. I am sure I’ve made my point to everyone reading, though. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12019 "2013-07-09T21:04:08Z")
You must have been the kid who would wrestle anyone until they said what you wanted them to, and literally twisted their arm until you got your way. Note …not everyone agrees with you in life so stop trying to force people to say the words you want to hear ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12020 "2013-07-09T21:08:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Sure. But yelling indicates something different from “a little bit” of speech. No, it says that somebody is contacting Trayvon, or is in his face at a minimum, and Trayvon is asking that person to back down. If Trayvon asks Zimmerman to get off and he doesn’t then is Trayvon right to use force to get away? I would say yes. Calmly (relatively) saying get off would suggest to me that Trayvon wasn’t the aggressor but trying to reason with Robo Neighborhood Cop prior to the start of the actual brawl. It could mean Zimmerman was restraining him in order to hold the punk until the cops arrived. Not saying that happened but it certainly makes a lot of sense to anybody with an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12021 "2013-07-09T21:16:42Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > You must have been the kid who would wrestle anyone until they said what you wanted them to, and literally twisted their arm until you got your way. Note …not everyone agrees with you in life so stop trying to force people to say the words you want to hear So in a round about way you finally admit you were wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12022 "2013-07-09T21:20:51Z")
No, i didnt let him get me in a headlock, I disengaged after telling him i dont agreeHey I am starting to empathize with tm in how it feels to be pursued and hounded aggresively by Bricker…Let this rest in peace, lets lay that crazy compulsive questioning to eternal rest ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12023 "2013-07-09T21:42:20Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > You must have been the kid who would wrestle anyone until they said what you wanted them to, and literally twisted their arm until you got your way. Note …not everyone agrees with you in life so stop trying to force people to say the words you want to hear I appreciate your making the concession, though. Thanks – even late, a classy move. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=600) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=602)