# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 604
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12064 "2013-07-10T00:52:16Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > I called 'em booboos. The kind you put a power rangers band aid on. > > These aren’t lumps on a babies head. This is a “grown ass man”. Go ahead and google image “beating victim”. Zimmerman has some ouchies on his head for getting his ass kicked for so long. ☹ Poor Mr. Zimmerman. It is a evidentiary fact that Zimmerman’s wounds were not significant. > > According to Zimmerman interviews he screamed for help for a long time as \*the wild animal \* Trayvon beat him mercilessly, yet George’s wounds were not visible just minutes or hours later. No defensive wounds. No scratches or eye gouges on Trayvon. No bite marks on Trayvons hands if he was smothering Zimmermans ability to talk and breath. Nothing. Nothing. Just one wound on Trayvon, a bullet hole in his chest. Why do you omit the broken nose? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12065 "2013-07-10T00:53:43Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Well, zimmerman told detectives that he screamed for help for a long time as crazed tm beat and slammed ( Remember the m.e. who said slammed would be equivalent to great bodily injury to his head?) And I havent seen any black eyes, other than the two gz naturally has, and heard no talk of black eyes And the 4-6 blows seems to have been more like a couple. If Zimmerman were on trial for his story being partially inaccurate, that might matter. It’s quite simple: Zimmerman could use deadly force to defend himself if he reasonably feared death or great bodily harm. Was he in a situation where he reasonably feared death or great bodily harm? Yes, he had a person on top of him and striking him. Did he start the fight? It cannot be proven either way. Thus, not guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12066 "2013-07-10T00:54:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Ah, cool, so you agree he should be found not guilty then? I think hes guilty as hell. He will be aquitted based on a lack of evidence. (reasonable doubt as the GZ cheerleaders love to stand on.) ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12067 "2013-07-10T00:54:29Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It would be nice if that standard was actually applied to the thousands of defendants, disproportionately but not exclusively black, who get processed through the court system daily for drug offenses and other bullshit. But yes, that is how the system is supposed to work, and it’s working that way in this case because of the attention involved and because Zimmerman is able to hire attorneys outside of his normal means due to racists nationwide donating to him. I absolutely agree with this. It’s a fucking disgrace how your court system treats poor people and minorities. The answer to that is emphatically not to treat all other people in that abysmal fashion, though. > [@](#): > > Given that this is the rare case where the system is as weighted towards the defendant as it is supposed to be, it’s curious that Team Zimmerman fails to understand that in such a system, BY DESIGN, many people who did in fact do something wrong go free, in order to preclude the possibility of an innocent person being convicted. Yep. I happen to believe Zimmerman is innocent, but I don’t claim to be able to prove that, and I suspect that were it possible to prove that, he would have already obtained immunity from all legal action. It is clear, however, that he is not guilty. The justice system is not a binary between innocent and guilty, it is binary between guilty and not guilty. > [@](#): > > There is no doubt in my mind that innocent people do not lie, over and over and over and over again, about the circumstances of the event, and that Zimmerman caused the entire situation with his “neighborhood watch” BS. The standard of “rational human being on the Internet applying the smell test to this cockamamie story” and “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” are not the same, and I’ve never said they were. And yet, no-one’s come up with even decent evidence, let alone proof, that Zimmerman is lying. That doesn’t mean that I believe everything he says. Again, “truth” and “lie” are not the only options, and expecting a man who’s received significant head injuries, and just been through an extremely traumatic experience, to have anything close to perfect recall is, to put it _mildly_, fucking retarded. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12068 "2013-07-10T00:55:31Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > I think hes guilty as hell. > > He will be aquitted based on a lack of evidence. (reasonable doubt as the GZ cheerleaders love to stand on.) Lack of evidence? So, you mean not guilty, and you are basing you thought that he’s guilty on, to colloquialise, fuck all? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12069 "2013-07-10T00:57:18Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > He did not have a broken nose. He was never treated for a broken nose. [Ahem:](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57435240-504083/trayvon-martin-shooting-george-zimmerman-suffered-two-black-eyes-broken-nose-court-documents-say/) > [@](#): > > Court records show George Zimmerman was treated for a broken nose and cuts after the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, CBS News has confirmed. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12070 "2013-07-10T00:58:04Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It would be nice if that standard was actually applied to the thousands of defendants, disproportionately but not exclusively black, who get processed through the court system daily for drug offenses and other bullshit. But yes, that is how the system is supposed to work, and it’s working that way in this case because of the attention involved and because Zimmerman is able to hire attorneys outside of his normal means due to racists nationwide donating to him. > > Given that this is the rare case where the system is as weighted towards the defendant as it is supposed to be, it’s curious that Team Zimmerman fails to understand that in such a system, BY DESIGN, many people who did in fact do something wrong go free, in order to preclude the possibility of an innocent person being convicted. There is no doubt in my mind that innocent people do not lie, over and over and over and over again, about the circumstances of the event, and that Zimmerman caused the entire situation with his “neighborhood watch” BS. The standard of “rational human being on the Internet applying the smell test to this cockamamie story” and “guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” are not the same, and I’ve never said they were. I’m not on Team Zimmerman, I’m Team Reasonable Doubt, but I understand that perfectly. The system is more important than any one defendant, no matter how much RO his case inspires. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12071 "2013-07-10T01:04:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Why do you omit the broken nose? I will concede bloody nose, but if my man had one it was the single most minor broke nose ever. Ever. A couple hours later at the station I would say Trayvon did him a favor based on the pictures. That thing was pretty. I do not doubt Trayvon punched him in the nose. I contend it was deserved. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12072 "2013-07-10T01:04:34Z")
Steopan, Im sorry, but you sound just really really NOT like a person who should speak in public…you say that tm was " wandering in the rain for ages"…first off, he was simply walking to his dads house…I guess you have little to soundly show tm actually DID anything suspicious, so you take the liberty of describing him walking home, as " wandering in the rain for ages"…( by the way, is the fact you mention rain implying that kids or people who have to walk in the rain must be guilty of something, however vague, based on …precipitation? But even if he was " wandering endlessly" so the f what? Are you aware that some people enjoy walking, and some even enjoy walking in the rain? I have always liked the rain, and sometimes will go out to walk when its raining because i enjoy it ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12073 "2013-07-10T01:08:30Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It would be nice if that standard was actually applied to the thousands of defendants, disproportionately but not exclusively black, who get processed through the court system daily for drug offenses and other bullshit. But yes, that is how the system is supposed to work, and it’s working that way in this case because of the attention involved and because Zimmerman is able to hire attorneys outside of his normal means due to racists nationwide donating to him. > > Given that this is the rare case where the system is as weighted towards the defendant as it is supposed to be, it’s curious that Team Zimmerman fails to understand that in such a system, BY DESIGN, many people who did in fact do something wrong go free, in order to preclude the possibility of an innocent person being convicted. What is your experience with the criminal justice system? Because I was a public defender for years, and I never saw the system work any other way. What experience supports your statement to the contrary? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12074 "2013-07-10T01:09:11Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Steopan, Im sorry, but you sound just really really NOT like a person who should speak in public…you say that tm was " wandering in the rain for ages"…first off, he was simply walking to his dads house…I guess you have little to soundly show tm actually DID anything suspicious, so you take the liberty of describing him walking home, as " wandering in the rain for ages"…( by the way, is the fact you mention rain implying that kids or people who have to walk in the rain must be guilty of something, however vague, based on …precipitation? But even if he was " wandering endlessly" so the f what? Are you aware that some people enjoy walking, and some even enjoy walking in the rain? I have always liked the rain, and sometimes will go out to walk when its raining because i enjoy it You should probably acquaint yourself with the facts of this case. We know Martin took longer than necessary walking home, and was walking in a private place. It’s reasonable to consider that suspicious, if you’re not aware that he’s a guest in said private place. Also, if you want to question people’s fitness to speak/type in a public place, you should probably first acquaint yourself with grammar and punctuation. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12075 "2013-07-10T01:09:21Z")
Zimmerman chasing Martin with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away” doesn’t mean anything at all, because it is not inherently illegal to chase someone with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away.” While Martin taking longer than someone decided he should have to walk home is also not inherently illegal, for some reason THAT has all sorts of legal significance. Makes perfect sense. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12076 "2013-07-10T01:11:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What is your experience with the criminal justice system? Cops lying to get around Fourth Amendment rules, inadequately funded public defenders offices, political dictates alternating between arrest quotas and “nobody gets arrested for the rest of this month, the statistics look bad” depending on the blowing of the political winds, a focus on creating nonsense crimes to extract revenue over public safety, militarized and totally unaccountable police, a prison system overflowing with nonviolent drug offenders. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12077 "2013-07-10T01:11:49Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > I will concede bloody nose, but if my man had one it was the single most minor broke nose ever. Ever. A couple hours later at the station I would say Trayvon did him a favor based on the pictures. That thing was pretty. > > I do not doubt Trayvon punched him in the nose. I contend it was deserved. What happened to your emphatic statement that he never received treatment for a broken nose? You have no problem pointing out inaccuracies in Zimmerman’s statements and concluding that he is a liar, not to be believed. What should I conclude about this inaccuracy of yours concerning treatment for his broken nose? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12078 "2013-07-10T01:13:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Zimmerman chasing Martin with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away” doesn’t mean anything at all, because it is not inherently illegal to chase someone with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away.” Cite on this vow??? I can’t believe I hadn’t heard that Zimmerman vowed to not let the “fucking punk” get away! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12079 "2013-07-10T01:13:27Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Zimmerman chasing Martin with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away” doesn’t mean anything at all, because it is not inherently illegal to chase someone with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away.” > > While Martin taking longer than someone decided he should have to walk home is also not inherently illegal, for some reason THAT has all sorts of legal significance. > > Makes perfect sense. There’d have been no problem with Martin calling the police if he felt Zimmerman was suspicious or threatening. Indeed, that would have been ideal behaviour. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12080 "2013-07-10T01:15:05Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Cops lying to get around Fourth Amendment rules, inadequately funded public defenders offices, political dictates alternating between arrest quotas and “nobody gets arrested for the rest of this month, the statistics look bad” depending on the blowing of the political winds, a focus on creating nonsense crimes to extract revenue over public safety, militarized and totally unaccountable police, a prison system overflowing with nonviolent drug offenders. While I have seen cops lie, it’s been extremely rare. The vast majority of cops get paid regardless of whether the accused is convicted or not, and have no desire to risk their jobs over saving an arrest. So what were the specific circumstances in which you saw cops lying with enough frequency to conclude it was something other than a rare event? What is your specific experience with the criminal justice system? ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12081 "2013-07-10T01:16:31Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Lack of evidence? So, you mean not guilty, and you are basing you thought that he’s guilty on, to colloquialise, fuck all? No. I think I and others have brought up credible evidence that supports the states claim that it was Zimmerman who wanted to “get these assholes”. Your position of reasonable doubt and self defense will win because the states case isnt strong. Those are great principles and should be honored forever. Based on the aforementioned “internet smell test” I don’t buy a single thing GZ says. I believe Jeantel, and the George’s own words to nen, and 911 calls, and the eye witnesses. I will make my own valuations on the credibility of the evidence and arrive at my own conclusions. Not fuck all. ---
**Author:** ![Mr-Pookie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ed655f/32.png) [@Mr-Pookie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr-Pookie)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12082 "2013-07-10T01:29:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > What happened to your emphatic statement that he never received treatment for a broken nose? > > You have no problem pointing out inaccuracies in Zimmerman’s statements and concluding that he is a liar, not to be believed. > > What should I conclude about this inaccuracy of yours concerning treatment for his broken nose? Bricker is the king of internet debate. There I said it. It doesnt change the facts as a juror is entitled to see them. You dug deep enough in to find me lacking specific knowledge. Fact remains that his wounds were bullshit. Especially in comparison to killing a guy for walking through his neighborhood. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12083 "2013-07-10T01:37:42Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > Fact remains that his wounds were bullshit. Especially in comparison to killing a guy for walking through his neighborhood. Hell, [this woman, Sarah McKinley](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57352784-504083/okla-mom-sarah-mckinley-wont-face-charges-for-shooting-intruder/), shot and killed a man, and she didn’t have a mark on her. Since comparing wounds is how we judge self-defense cases in Mr-Pookie’s world, are you outraged that she’s not in prison? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=603) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=605)