# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 607
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12124 "2013-07-10T12:07:55Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I haven’t studied that case in great detail, but what got her convicted was probably that she left her home, pushing past her husband, and entered the garage to get her gun and return to the house with it. That’s not demonstrative of being in reasonable fear. Also, the argument was that firing a warning shot, not a shot to injure or kill, showed that she was not in fear of imminent injury or death. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12125 "2013-07-10T12:10:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > " > Also, **Magiver** is clearly referring to the criminal standard for proof. I didn’t ask him to tell me the criminal standard for proof. I asked him to tell me what his standard is, a question prompted by the persistent argument over what lies have been proved or not. In an effort to understand his reason for his insistence, I stopped arguing it and sought to better understand his understanding. Which I am still doing and which you are not really contributing to, but thanks for the effort. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12126 "2013-07-10T12:11:59Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I didn’t ask him to tell me the criminal standard for proof. > > I asked him to tell me what his standard is, a question prompted by the persistent argument over what lies have been proved or not. In an effort to understand his reason for his insistence, I stopped arguing it and sought to better understand his understanding. > > Which I am still doing and which you are not really contributing to, but thanks for the effort. Ok, I’ll help. It has not been proved that Zimmerman lied. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12127 "2013-07-10T13:10:37Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Zimmerman chasing Martin with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away” doesn’t mean anything at all, because it is not inherently illegal to chase someone with a gun after vowing not to let the “fucking punk get away.” Your assertion that Zimmerman vowed not to let the “fucking punk get away” is false. Your earlier assertion that someone alleged that Martin was breaking into a window is also false. > [@](#): > > While Martin taking longer than someone decided he should have to walk home is also not inherently illegal, for some reason THAT has all sorts of legal significance. Your assertion that anyone believes there is legal significance to how long Martin took to walk home is also false. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12128 "2013-07-10T13:11:24Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Magiver and company , its now known trayvon was simply walking home, you want to stretch that into something suspicious is a pitiful attempt, ( awww, but he was walking slow, awwww it was raining, etc etc) NEWSFLASH…many people walk, some of them walk fast, some slow, some in between, and some even like myself like to or sometimes have to walk in the rain. Its offensive and disingenuous to claim that walking is a suspicious activity. is this true??? that manny peeples walk fast and some peeples walk slow and even like yoursefl walk in the rain? And like it. This IS a NEWSFLASH!!! Hoo would have though so that people think it is a pitifiul attempt to be suspicious. To them I altso say awwww etc etc. Becuze NEWSFLASH raining on people is also somtiems a suspicious offensive and disingenouous activity!!1!!!111!! ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12129 "2013-07-10T13:24:54Z")
> [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > [QUOTE=Human Action] > Ah, so injuries, let alone a particular grade of injury, aren’t required before someone defends themselves. In your house. [/QUOTE] No, you are incorrect. It is not necessary to wait until after one is seriously injured to exercise one’s right to self-defense even outside your home. > [@Mr-Pookie](#): > > Did Zimmermans profiling comments to nen constitute a threat when you couple that with him chasing after Trayvon. No. > [@](#): > > Did Zmmerman push or detain Trayvon against his will prior to the punch? There’s no evidence of it. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12130 "2013-07-10T13:31:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > So can we all agree: the injuries’ existence and severity do not technically and independently make or break Zimmerman’s right to claim self-defense and continuing to argue either way means nothing in terms of changing the core argument you or they are making? I’m on board with that. I’ve only used the injuries as evidence that Zimmerman and Martin were fighting, with Zimmerman clearly losing, and, at the moment he fired, underneath Martin, and that such a fight is a situation in which a reasonable person would fear death or great bodily harm. If it could be proven that Zimmerman started the fight, then he’d have to meet much more stringent criteria before he could use deadly for in self-defense. From Florida statute 776.041: > [@](#): > > The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who: > (1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: > > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. So, if Zimmerman _were_ the aggressor, then questions of whether he could have fought back using non-deadly force, or could have wriggled free of Martin, suddenly become very important. It can’t be proven to my satisfaction, or, in my view, to a reasonable person’s satisfaction, that Zimmerman did start the fight. Thus, he needs only a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm, and in the situation he was in, such fear was entirely reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12131 "2013-07-10T14:12:47Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > Well, don’t YOU believe that? Isn’t it what you are arguing? The trivial injuries Zimmerman suffered were the best Martin could do despite his watermelon-fueled bloodlust? A broken nose and multiple head strikes into cement are not trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12132 "2013-07-10T14:27:08Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > A broken nose and multiple head strikes into cement are not trivial. No, see, they ARE trivial. The rule you have to apply is if Zimmerman does anything (follow, approach, talk to) Martin, it’s proof that Zimmerman is evil and justifies any action Martin takes. If, on the other hand, Martin does anything to Zimmerman (breaks his nose, hits his head to the concrete several times, sits on top of him), it’s prove that Zimmerman is evil and justifies any action Martin takes. See how tidy the logic is? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12133 "2013-07-10T14:48:12Z")
Yeah, isn’t that handy? Zimmerman can tote his gun around and go chasing after people he deems suspicious, and if he ends up having to shoot someone, well, golly, shit happens, huh? On the other hand, that dastardly blackguard Trayvon Martin, obviously up to no good by virtue of the fact that he didn’t walk home from the store fast enough to please some of our intrepid investigators here, means he probably deserved to die, and Zimmerman really didn’t have a choice in the matter. Tidy logic is fun, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12134 "2013-07-10T14:54:01Z")
But, see, nobody’s claiming that Zimmerman didn’t shoot Martin, but a few people in this thread are dismissing a broken nose and some head wounds (possibly minor ones) as “trivial booboos” or no injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12135 "2013-07-10T14:56:40Z")
And there are plenty of people attributing malevolent motives to Martin for doing nothing more than walking home – our hero the shooter included. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12136 "2013-07-10T14:59:24Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Okay, let me make sure I understand you accurately: without being specific as to the form the evidence would have to take, you are saying that you consider something proven if the evidence eliminates all other possibilities, but so long that other possibilities exist, then it hasn’t been proven. > > I am sure I am misunderstanding something in a very fundamental way. I honestly appreciate your answers and any more help you can give me in understanding how you determine what is a lie will be much appreciated. > > Thanks Using this case as an example, you said he lied about his reason for exiting the truck. He clearly intended to keep an eye on Martin. He clearly was trying to establish his location. Yet you determined he was lying when he said he was looking for a street sign. First, they are not mutually exclusive. Second, they are both backed up by the phone call itself. In order for you to claim he lied about looking for a street sign you would need evidence this didn’t happen. That could be in the form of a video, an eye witness or a phone log showing the truck was on a different street altogether. You could also use an email sent by him stating he did not forget the name of the street and it was all a cleverly crafted diabolical plot. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12137 "2013-07-10T15:10:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > In order for you to claim he lied about looking for a street sign you would need evidence this didn’t happen. No. Remember “reasonable” doubt and what the “reasonable” fear of great bodily harm is? “Reasonable” is a very important concept in evidence. It is not reasonable to believe that a man who lives in a neighborhood with three streets AND regularly drives around those streets on self-appointed patrol had any confusion whatsoever about what street he was on. Applying reasonable standards of likelihood, common sense, and human functioning to people’s claims is exactly what the jury is supposed to be doing. It’s not only allowable, but incumbent, upon that jury to conclude that Zimmerman being honest about his reason for exiting the car is, by any reasonable standard, a lie. Under your principle, if Zimmerman claimed that Martin sprouted wings and fangs and started breathing fire at him, we would have to find “evidence that this didn’t happen” to disbelieve him. We could not conclude that Zimmerman is telling a false story because it’s not reasonable to think that a person is capable of turning into a dragon, and instead would need to prove that Martin is not a dragon. It’s absurd and it’s not what the law is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12138 "2013-07-10T15:13:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Did Zmmerman push or detain Trayvon against his will prior to the punch? > > There’s no evidence of it. Well… It’s a permissible inference. Jeantel testified she heard Martin say, “Get off.” It’s a reasonable inference that Martin was speaking to Zimmerman, and a reasonable inference that Zimmerman was “on” Martin in some physical way to prompt such a statement. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12139 "2013-07-10T15:27:18Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > It is not reasonable to believe that a man who lives in a neighborhood with three streets AND regularly drives around those streets on self-appointed patrol had any confusion whatsoever about what street he was on. Applying reasonable standards of likelihood, common sense, and human functioning to people’s claims is exactly what the jury is supposed to be doing. It’s not only allowable, but incumbent, upon that jury to conclude that Zimmerman being honest about his reason for exiting the car is, by any reasonable standard, a lie. So, when Zimmerman was unable to tell the NEN dispatcher what address he was parked at, that was a…? ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12140 "2013-07-10T15:35:04Z")
…lie? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12141 "2013-07-10T15:38:38Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > …lie? To what end? Are you proposing that Zimmerman was setting up a cover story several minutes before the confrontation and shooting occured? And undermining the cover story by telling the dispatcher he was following Martin? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12142 "2013-07-10T15:39:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well… > > It’s a permissible inference. Jeantel testified she heard Martin say, “Get off.” It’s a reasonable inference that Martin was speaking to Zimmerman, and a reasonable inference that Zimmerman was “on” Martin in some physical way to prompt such a statement. It’s also reasonable inference to say it was Zimmerman because it was heard faintly. This backed up by the evidence of who was clearly assaulted and who wasn’t. Now it’s possible that Martin was assaulted but all the other evidence shows Zimmerman stayed in the upper part of the T and Martin moved from his house to this area which suggests Zimmerman avoided conflict and Martin sought it out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2013, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12143 "2013-07-10T15:55:40Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > No. > > Remember “reasonable” doubt and what the “reasonable” fear of great bodily harm is? “Reasonable” is a very important concept in evidence. > > It is not reasonable to believe that a man who lives in a neighborhood with three streets AND regularly drives around those streets on self-appointed patrol had any confusion whatsoever about what street he was on. I’m sorry but this is factually incorrect. I do not know the names of the streets around me and I’ve lived in the same house for 20 years. I would recognize them as being the streets around me. It doesn’t mean I can recall which is which. I simply have no reason to know them. All my friends live elsewhere. Hell I routinely forget certain words even though I know them. I have a horrible time describing parts of houses. I often mix up terms like “soffit” and “fascia” and I’m doing good if I can just remember those terms to begin with. I work on stuff like that all the time. If poor verbal skills was a crime the Vice President would be doing a life sentence. You’ve put this forth as if they are the only streets in the whole world to Zimmerman. He likely knows the names of the major connector streets over those near him. It’s pretty clear in the phone call that he couldn’t recall the name of the street at the time of the call and to suggest otherwise means you believe he was concocting a huge lie in advance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=606) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=608)