# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 612
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12224 "2013-07-11T15:19:41Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Nope. I’m baffled then why you would have such a difficult time noticing when people are lying in everyday life. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12225 "2013-07-11T15:21:01Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Stoid, Your point makes sense. I dont agree with the notion that someone who tends to be predisposed to assume a person is lying would be a better detector of b.s. Assuming a lie and ascertaining a lie are not the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12226 "2013-07-11T15:22:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > He’s lying. He got out of the car because ‘he’s running’, pure and simple, and he’s lying about it because – rightly or wrongly – he thinks that it may cast him in a bad light. From his very first statements, when he clearly realized that it might make him look bad, just listen to how he’s told big fat stinky ones at every point that relates to him ‘following’ Martin. ‘I wasn’t following him’. ‘He wasn’t running, he was like, skipping, like he wasn’t afraid’. ‘I didn’t get out to follow him, I got out to find a street sign’. ‘I wasn’t following him or looking for him, I spent two minutes after the NEN call by not going back to my truck but not looking for him, no sirree, I was just too scared to go back to my truck without a flashlight so I thought I’d stand around in the rain while not knowing where the possibly drugged, possibly armed, up-to-no-good real suspicious punk was at’. He got out of the truck to follow Martin, yes. His effort to cloud this after the fact, while understandable if he’s innocent _or_ guilty, is to my mind the closest thing to a lie by Zimmerman that anyone here has been able to articulate, and it is mildly troubling. That said, there are two issues here: why did Zimmerman leave his truck, and why did he not immediately return to it when he lost sight of Martin? They don’t necessarily have the same answer. He almost certainly left the truck to follow Martin. Why didn’t he immediately return to his truck when he lost sight of Martin? Possibilities abound: he wanted to get his tactical flashlight working first, he wanted an address closest to where he last saw Martin to supply to the police when they called him, he wanted to discreetely tail Martin to give a real-time location to the police, he wanted to tackle and apprehend Martin. Or, some combination. One incident that could be instructive is a previous incident at the neighborhood that Zimmerman was involved in. An intruder was seen entering a house, the police were called, and the suspect was apprehended by police. Zimmerman stood observing the house while the police were on their way, and the person was caught by them, in part thanks to his assistance. He made no effort to catch the prowler himself, he stood back and observed. > [@DragonAsh](#): > > He’s consistently and purposefully lied about this at every turn. Maybe he’s just scared that it would ‘look bad’ if he admitted following and such. But either way, he’s lied about it – and it means we can’t rule out the notion that he’s lying because he did, in fact, have a strong desire to ‘catch the asshole punk’ before he got away. He’s free to lie about his actions; I’m free to make assumptions about his motives to lie. No, that can’t be ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12227 "2013-07-11T15:23:21Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > He wanted to give the appearance to authorities that he wasn’t following Martin, so when the dispatcher asked “Are you following him?”, he answered “Yeah”. That’s an airtight scheme, right there. Exactly. Claiming Zimmerman lied and said he wasn’t following martin is a demonstrably false statement. He was following him, until he stopped, and there’s nothing wrong with that. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12228 "2013-07-11T15:26:48Z")
He was following him until he \*said \*he stopped, then he followed him some more going on about looking for a street sign in someone’s back yard. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12229 "2013-07-11T15:29:48Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Exactly. Claiming Zimmerman lied and said he wasn’t following martin is a demonstrably false statement. He was following him, until he stopped, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Which is why I called it a “genuis fool” theory: Zimmerman knows he’s going to go kill someone, leaving no one to contest his story, so he lies about knowing the address where he’s parked so he has a reason other than following Martin to be out of his truck…_after he’s told the dispatcher he was following Martin._ It’s beyond silly, and that’s before you get into all the other ways the shooting does not indicate premeditation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12230 "2013-07-11T15:35:10Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > He was following him until he \*said \*he stopped, then he followed him some more going on about looking for a street sign in someone’s back yard. If Zimmerman was still following him, why did Martin tell Jeantel that they had lost each other? What was Martin’s motivation to lie? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12231 "2013-07-11T15:41:01Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > He wanted to give the appearance to authorities that he wasn’t following Martin, so when the dispatcher asked “Are you following him?”, he answered “Yeah”. That’s an airtight scheme, right there. I thought my post was clear. When the authorities are heard asking him if is he following him and he says yeah, he is then instructed not to continue to do so, and gzs reply is “ok”…and he then turned around and kept on doing so ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12232 "2013-07-11T15:45:38Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > I thought my post was clear. When the authorities are heard asking him if is he following him and he says yeah, he is then instructed not to continue to do so, and gzs reply is “ok”…and he then turned around and kept on doing so First, he wasn’t instructed not to continue. “We don’t need you to do that” is not a command. Second, how is saying “Ok” to that statement indicative of “want[ing] to give the appearance to authorities he [Zimmerman] wouldnt continue to follow [Martin]” ? Wouldn’t “I won’t”, or “I’m not” serve that purpose far, far better? ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12233 "2013-07-11T16:21:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Which is why I called it a “genuis fool” theory: Zimmerman knows he’s going to go kill someone, leaving no one to contest his story, so he lies about knowing the address where he’s parked so he has a reason other than following Martin to be out of his truck…_after he’s told the dispatcher he was following Martin._ It’s beyond silly, and that’s before you get into all the other ways the shooting does not indicate premeditation. Jesus, are you being a moron on purpose? It’s not Zimmerman’s statements during the NEN call that are in question. It’s the answers he gives to questions -afterwards- that contradict the NEN call that are in question. It’s not hard, really. Go back and listen to the NEN call - listen to what the dispatch asks him, when he asks it, and what George says. Then go listen to George’s statements after the shooting. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12234 "2013-07-11T16:26:27Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Jesus, are you being a moron on purpose? It’s not Zimmerman’s statements during the NEN call that are in question. > > It’s the answers he gives to questions -afterwards- that contradict the NEN call that are in question. > > It’s not hard, really. Go back and listen to the NEN call - listen to what the dispatch asks him, when he asks it, and what George says. Then go listen to George’s statements after the shooting. You’re not on the same page with **Condescending Robot** and **Tollhouse** , then, as they have alleged that Zimmerman was lying during the NEN call, and not just contradicting it afterward. That is what I was referring to; it’s all contained in this thread if you want to read back a bit. Whether that position is moronic is a value judgment I’ll leave to you. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12235 "2013-07-11T16:29:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > First, he wasn’t instructed not to continue. “We don’t need you to do that” is not a command. > > Second, how is saying “Ok” to that statement indicative of “want[ing] to give the appearance to authorities he [Zimmerman] wouldnt continue to follow [Martin]” ? Wouldn’t “I won’t”, or “I’m not” serve that purpose far, far better? I am concurring with Dragonash ( among many others) on this. He was clearly instructed, twice, NOT to follow the victim, and he then indicated to authorities he would comply, while.not doing so. Im sorry, I know you realize this doesnt have a good look for your boy, but, it IS what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12236 "2013-07-11T16:32:14Z")
Hell, I’ll do the work for you: > [@Human Action](#): > > So, when Zimmerman was unable to tell the NEN dispatcher what address he was parked at, that was a…? > [@Condescending Robot](#): > > …lie? **CR** declined to elaborate when questioned further. > [@Human Action](#): > > So, when Zimmerman was unable to tell the NEN dispatcher what address he was parked at, that was a…? > [@Tollhouse](#): > > (cough, cough, gag)…a LIE ? **Tollhouse** attempted to explain further, but only in the vaguest of generalities: > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Your asking why would zimmerman, the defendant who is on trial for killing this kid, would possibly have to lie? > [@Tollhouse](#): > > he is afterall, the defendant, on trial for murder, he conveniently is the sole person since he snuffed out Trayvon, who can speak for what happened. Would a murder defendant have any reason to lie? Also, I know you will yell irrelevant, but i also see his (gzs) history, the type of things hes capable of > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Why would a murder defendant possibly lie? sometimes, when a person has malice towards another and is up to cause them harm, sometimes a person in that position might want to conceal some of the shit hes doing…just like how he was instructed NOT to continue to follow tm, and we hear him tell the dispatcher " okay"…this was a lie as well, he continued to pursue him after letting the dispatcher know he would comply and not do so… > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Your argument is that he cant be lying, because that would mean he had to lie, (in order to lie) I can see how that doesnt make the murder defendant look very good. ---
**Author:** ![obbn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/d6d6ee/32.png) [@obbn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obbn)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12237 "2013-07-11T16:33:01Z")
I haven’t had a chance to read much in the thread, but since this is IMHO I need to add mine. I just heard on the radio that the judge is letting the jury debate manslaughter and child abuse charges. This AFTER the defense had tested. You have got to be kidding me. This says to me that the judge realizes that Zimmerman is going to beat the murder charge and the powers that control the strings cannot have this. Even if you hate Zimmerman with ask your being, please tell me that you can’t think this ifs right. I’m so disgusted right now I could scream. This flies in the face of justice and the right to a fair trial. Zimmerman today, maybe you tomorrow. How can we as citizens stand by as this happens? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12238 "2013-07-11T16:35:11Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > I am concurring with Dragonash ( among many others) on this. He was clearly instructed, twice, NOT to follow the victim, and he then indicated to authorities he would comply, while.not doing so. Whether Zimmerman actually continued to follow Martin is a separate and more important matter, but let’s take this one step at a time: Please quote me those two clear instructions Zimmerman received. > [@Tollhouse](#): > > Im sorry, I know you realize this doesnt have a good look for your boy, but, it IS what happened. Zimmerman is not “[my] boy”. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12239 "2013-07-11T16:38:15Z")
> [@obbn](#): > > I haven’t had a chance to read much in the thread, but since this is IMHO I need to add mine. I just heard on the radio that the judge is letting the jury debate manslaughter and child abuse charges. This AFTER the defense had tested. You have got to be kidding me. This says to me that the judge realizes that Zimmerman is going to beat the murder charge and the powers that control the strings cannot have this. Even if you hate Zimmerman with ask your being, please tell me that you can’t think this ifs right. I’m so disgusted right now I could scream. This flies in the face of justice and the right to a fair trial. Zimmerman today, maybe you tomorrow. How can we as citizens stand by as this happens? Manslaughter is a lesser-included charge to murder in Florida, and when the prosecution rested, the defense argued that the jury should consider manslaughter and not murder, so they were fine with the idea at that time. The felony murder child abuse thing seems bizarre to me, waiting to hear some legal opinions on that. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12240 "2013-07-11T16:51:25Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Jesus, are you being a moron on purpose? Do not call people insulting names, now in this thread or ever. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12241 "2013-07-11T16:57:07Z")
[QUOTE=[Zimmerman murder trial judge denies defense request on jury instruction | Reuters](http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/07/11/us-usa-florida-shooting-pursuit-idUSBRE96A0P720130711)] “I am not giving that instruction,” Seminole County Judge Debra Nelson … ruled after West failed to cite any law spelling out the legality of following someone by car or on foot. Evidence at Zimmerman’s trial has shown it was his pursuit of Martin, with a concealed semiautomatic handgun, that set in motion the event that led to Martin’s death. [/QUOTE] This is just a news excerpt rather than a legal opinion, but still points toward my view. Legal or not, _it is immoral_ to provoke a fight with someone _while carrying a concealed handgun_. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12242 "2013-07-11T17:01:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > If Zimmerman was still following him, why did Martin tell Jeantel that they had lost each other? What was Martin’s motivation to lie? How does them losing sight of each other negate the Zimmerman continuing to follow? Zimmerman was following Martin, lost sight of him, and then went looking for him – i.e., he continued following. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12243 "2013-07-11T17:03:43Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This is just a news excerpt rather than a legal opinion, but still points toward my view. > > Legal or not, _it is immoral_ to provoke a fight with someone _while carrying a concealed handgun_. Nelson set West a “prove the negative” task. Instead, the prosecution should have been given the task to give a law spelling out the illegality of following someone, with a concealed gun or without. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=611) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=613)