# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 613
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12244 "2013-07-11T17:04:55Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Zimmerman was following Martin, lost sight of him, and then went looking for him – i.e., he continued following. No evidence for Zimmerman going looking for Martin after he said “ok” to the dispatcher. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12245 "2013-07-11T17:06:43Z")
Bullshit. He said he stopped following when he was barely out of his car and yet someone how he found himself behind the houses shooting Martin in the chest. Let me guess … that’s when he was looking for the street sign. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12246 "2013-07-11T17:07:00Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Legal or not, _it is immoral_ to provoke a fight with someone _while carrying a concealed handgun_. Is it moral to provoke a fight with someone who is carrying a concealed handgun? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12247 "2013-07-11T17:11:23Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > This is just a news excerpt rather than a legal opinion, but still points toward my view. > > Legal or not, _it is immoral_ to provoke a fight with someone _while carrying a concealed handgun_. It’s not clear at all that Zimmerman did provoke a fight, though. But otherwise, I agree, a person shouldn’t start trouble while carrying a weapon because of the likelihood of it ending with a death. On the topic of Nelson’s ruling… > [@](#): > > I am not giving that instruction," Seminole County Judge Debra Nelson told Zimmerman defense lawyer Don West, who said **no Florida law makes it illegal to follow somebody** and that the proposed jury instruction was key to Zimmerman’s self-defense case. > > Nelson ruled after **West failed to cite any law spelling out the legality of following someone** by car or on foot. Bolding mine. How does that work? You can’t tell the jury something is legal unless there’s a law that says it’s legal? That’s not how laws generally work, they proscribe behavior, rather than permit it. Maybe her ruling was correct on other grounds, but if that was her reasoning, it seems deeply flawed to this layman. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12248 "2013-07-11T17:16:37Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Bullshit. He said he stopped following when he was barely out of his car and yet someone how he found himself behind the houses shooting Martin in the chest. Let me guess … that’s when he was looking for the street sign. I said no evidence. Not fantasies. Evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12249 "2013-07-11T17:30:49Z")
Terr, when I think about fantasies in the case, the name gz is the one the instantly and solely comes to mind ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12250 "2013-07-11T17:31:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No evidence for Zimmerman going looking for Martin after he said “ok” to the dispatcher. > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Bullshit. He said he stopped following when he was barely out of his car and yet someone how he found himself behind the houses shooting Martin in the chest. Let me guess … that’s when he was looking for the street sign. > [@Terr](#): > > I said no evidence. Not fantasies. Evidence. [Evidence:](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591978-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-chris-serino-lead-detective-in-case-of-trayvon-martin-killing-takes-stand-again-tuesday/) > [@](#): > > Both prosecutors and defense attorneys asked Serino about when and whether George Zimmerman was following Trayvon Martin the night of the altercation. De la Rionda replayed a portion of the Feb. 29 interview tape in court, in which Zimmerman says, “They told me not to follow him. I wasn’t following him, I was just going in the same direction.” > > “That’s following,” Serino said on the tape. > > O’Mara asked whether Serino had any evidence that Zimmerman continued to follow Trayvon Martin after a non-emergency dispatcher told him not to. > > “I would answer I have information, yes,” Serino said. “Just based on where we located Trayvon and the fact that the altercation happened after the confrontation. That’s my interpretation. There was some following.” ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12251 "2013-07-11T17:33:45Z")
If you think that anyone on Team Zimmerman is above asserting their total belief that Zimmerman completely abandoned Martin and also decided to walk in the same direction as him at that moment for absolutely no reason, you haven’t been reading the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12252 "2013-07-11T17:34:32Z")
Side comment, not related to the murder itself…but god, for the love of pete, Don West sure has trouble controlling himself…the Judge admonished him that shes had to give him the courts rules of conduct THREE times now…while Im not sure if this will at all influence any jurors in how they perceive gz, it probably doesnt help his cause to have suoer pitbull lawyer repeatedly not complying with the judges orders ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12253 "2013-07-11T17:46:47Z")
The last thing I would do as an alpha-male criminal lawyer type, if I wanted to get on the good side of an all-female jury, is constantly act like a dismissive brat towards the female judge, but then again this case has been all about the attorneys on both sides acting like idiots since day 1, so who’s really surprised. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12254 "2013-07-11T17:48:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Is it moral to provoke a fight with someone who is carrying a concealed handgun? > > Regards, > Shodan Teenage boy gets annoyed when harassed by asshole. News at 11. :rolleyes: _ **Zimmerman created a situation where it was not unlikely he would kill a teenager guilty only of losing his temper.** _ Whether GZ is technically guilty or not, why is it so hard for some of you to understand GZ’s actions are certainly immoral, cowardly and – if legal – should be studied for necessary rewriting of the law. ETA: He brought a concealed handgun to a fist fight. Even in the Old Wild West (model society for gun nuts?), _guns were displayed openly_. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12255 "2013-07-11T17:50:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Zimmerman created a situation where it was not unlikely he would kill a teenager guilty only of losing his temper. Whether GZ is technically guilty or not, why is it so hard for some of you to understand GZ’s actions are certainly immoral, cowardly and – if legal – should be studied for necessary rewriting of the law. I generally agree with this analysis. I don’t believe the prosecution created a legally sufficient case for guilt, but Zimmerman’s careless decision to set off in the darkness, armed, was a very foolish thing for him to have done. There was no reason for it – it was legal, yes, but it wasn’t wise. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12256 "2013-07-11T17:53:27Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > [SIZE=“3”]_ **Zimmerman created a situation where it was not unlikely he would kill a teenager guilty only of losing his temper.** _ Losing his temper _and_ assaulting somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12257 "2013-07-11T17:56:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I generally agree with this analysis. I don’t believe the prosecution created a legally sufficient case for guilt, but Zimmerman’s careless decision to set off in the darkness, armed, was a very foolish thing for him to have done. There was no reason for it – it was legal, yes, but it wasn’t wise. ISTM that this applies to anyone who carries a gun for their own safety, anywhere. Any such person might be decreasing the likelihood that they will be a victim, but you can’t get around the fact that anyone who carries a gun is increasing the likelihood that they will incorrectly perceive someone to be a serious threat to themselves and shoot them. Therefore it is immoral and cowardly etc. for anyone to carry a gun, based on this logic. Of course, this has much broader application than guns too. There are a lot of things that people do which increase the likelihood that they might accidently kill other people. Driving cars is one example that comes to mind, but many many others, no doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12258 "2013-07-11T17:56:19Z")
> [@camille](#): > > [Evidence:](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57591978-504083/george-zimmerman-trial-chris-serino-lead-detective-in-case-of-trayvon-martin-killing-takes-stand-again-tuesday/) " “They told me not to follow him. I wasn’t following him, I was just going in the same direction.”" “That’s following,” Serino said on the tape. Every day, when you walk in the street, there are hundreds of people walking in front of you and you’re going the same direction. I guess according to your logic, you are “following” all of them. Which, according to Judge Nelson is not necessarily legal. You should be charged with the crime. Whatever it is. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12259 "2013-07-11T17:57:23Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > If you think that anyone on Team Zimmerman is above asserting their total belief that Zimmerman completely abandoned Martin and also decided to walk in the same direction as him at that moment for absolutely no reason, you haven’t been reading the thread. > [@Terr](#): > > Every day, when you walk in the street, there are hundreds of people walking in front of you and you’re going the same direction. I guess according to your logic, you are “following” all of them. Which, according to Judge Nelson is not necessarily legal. You should be charged with the crime. Whatever it is. Great. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12260 "2013-07-11T17:58:10Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Teenage boy gets annoyed when harassed by asshole. News at 11. :rolleyes: > > _ **Zimmerman created a situation where it was not unlikely he would kill a teenager guilty only of losing his temper.** _ Whether GZ is technically guilty or not, why is it so hard for some of you to understand GZ’s actions are certainly immoral, cowardly and – if legal – should be studied for necessary rewriting of the law. Is Martin’s attack - punching Zimmerman in the nose - “immoral”? “Cowardly”? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12261 "2013-07-11T17:59:44Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Therefore it is immoral and cowardly etc. for anyone to carry a gun, based on this logic. No. If you’re carrying a concealed gun, you have a responsibility _to avoid unnecessary fights_. (Think of all the movies where the martial arts expert with deadly hands walks away from confrontation.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12262 "2013-07-11T18:01:14Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is Martin’s attack - punching Zimmerman in the nose - “immoral”? “Cowardly”? :dubious: 😕 😕 So two wrongs make a right? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12263 "2013-07-11T18:02:40Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Teenage boy gets annoyed when harassed by asshole. News at 11. :rolleyes: > > _ **Zimmerman created a situation where it was not unlikely he would kill a teenager guilty only of losing his temper.** _ Whether GZ is technically guilty or not, why is it so hard for some of you to understand GZ’s actions are certainly immoral, cowardly and – if legal – should be studied for necessary rewriting of the law. It really depends on what those actions were, though. It he did break off pursuit of Martin for good at the point in the NEN call when he stops running and starting messing with his flashlight, then was confronted and attacked by Martin doubling back to start shit, then it’s hard to say Zimmerman did anything immoral or cowardly. If he did continue pursuit, and confronted Martin, then certainly that’s immoral. But how are we to know that that’s what happened? > [@septimus](#): > > ETA: He brought a concealed handgun to a fist fight. Even in the Old Wild West (model society for gun nuts?), _guns were displayed openly_. Again, though, did he bring the fight, or was it brought to him? It’s a crucial moral difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=612) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=614)