# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 62
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1221 "2012-05-16T00:36:14Z")
> **[Injury reports heat up debate in Trayvon Martin case](http://content.usatoday.com/communities/ondeadline/post/2012/05/report-feds-weigh-hate-crime-charge-in-trayvon-martin-death/1#.T7L0-eMbuIU)** > > George Zimmerman reportedly suffered a a broken nose, two black eyes and two cuts to the back of his head before killing Trayvon Martin. Getting back to the case, Zimmerman suffered a fractured nose that evening, two black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head, and a minor back injury. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1222 "2012-05-16T01:26:44Z")
I quit regularly following this case but noticed the mentioned article about the injuries. So we now have a medical doctor making a diagnosis about Zimmerman’s injuries. It’s obviously not a deal breaker but I don’t see how that information doesn’t **substantially** help the defense case. Especially with regard to the high charge on the indictment. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1223 "2012-05-16T01:34:21Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I quit regularly following this case but noticed the mentioned article about the injuries. So we now have a medical doctor making a diagnosis about Zimmerman’s injuries. It’s obviously not a deal breaker but I don’t see how that information doesn’t **substantially** help the defense case. Especially with regard to the high charge on the indictment. I would say this is helpful to the defense, but only marginally. It becomes substantial if the doctor can be put on the stand and asked, “Did your examination show when the injury was sustained?” In other words, did Zimmerman get home that night, realize he was in trouble, and hit himself with a potato in a sock? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1224 "2012-05-16T01:37:16Z")
From the ABC report: > [@](#): > > The two lacerations on the back of his head, one of them nearly an inch long, the other about a quarter-inch long, were first revealed in photos obtained exclusively by ABC News last month. > > But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor. The report also mentions that he was on Adderall (amphetamine & dextroamphetamine) which lists among its [side effects](http://adhd.emedtv.com/adderall/adderall-side-effects-p2.html) “More outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal.” If this was suggested to have played a part in things (only about one in ten people experience this side effect) would it be considered damning, or exculpatory? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1225 "2012-05-16T01:41:11Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would say this is helpful to the defense, but only marginally. It becomes substantial if the doctor can be put on the stand and asked, “Did your examination show when the injury was sustained?” > > In other words, did Zimmerman get home that night, realize he was in trouble, and hit himself with a potato in a sock? I find it difficult to believe if O’Mara is a decent attorney that he won’t be able to convince at least some of the jurors that the diagnosis was based on injuries received in the fight. Unless we hear something from some other party like the EMTs that widely differs with the doctor’s diagnosis I don’t see how O’Mara would have any trouble at all rebutting any prosecution claims that the injuries were self inflicted. He was looked at by EMTs, if he had black eyes and lacerations and a nose injury they’ll testify to that, so I think it’s only if the prosecution can get some witness on the scene to rebut the idea that the injuries occurred from the fight that this isn’t a big bonus to the defense. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1226 "2012-05-16T01:42:30Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I would say this is helpful to the defense, but only marginally. It becomes substantial if the doctor can be put on the stand and asked, “Did your examination show when the injury was sustained?” > > In other words, did Zimmerman get home that night, realize he was in trouble, and hit himself with a potato in a sock? Damn. Got beaten to the punch, no pun intended. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1227 "2012-05-16T01:42:39Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > From the ABC report:The report also mentions that he was on Adderall (amphetamine & dextroamphetamine) which lists among its [side effects](http://adhd.emedtv.com/adderall/adderall-side-effects-p2.html) “More outgoing or aggressive behavior than normal.” If this was suggested to have played a part in things (only about one in ten people experience this side effect) would it be considered damning, or exculpatory? I’d have to think it could hurt his overall chances of acquittal but help his chances of beating second degree murder (some chemically induced rage as a side effect from a legitimate prescription drug use would make it harder for 12 people to decide he had the “ill will” requirement for second degree murder.) My guess is that it probably has minimal impact. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1228 "2012-05-16T02:35:55Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I find it difficult to believe if O’Mara is a decent attorney that he won’t be able to convince at least some of the jurors that the diagnosis was based on injuries received in the fight. Still left unanswered, though, is whether Martin attacked Zimmerman without provocation. Even if Zimmerman got his nose punched etc, that doesn’t mean he can shoot his way of a fight. If Zimmerman had his a nose broken severe enough to leave him with 2 black eyes, why in the hell did he delay medical care until the next day? This on top of a wounded head that had supposedly been pounded on the ground. Forget about spending 5 hours at the PD without going to the ER. How does the defense explain this? > [@](#): > > Unless we hear something from some other party like the EMTs that widely differs with the doctor’s diagnosis I don’t see how O’Mara would have any trouble at all rebutting any prosecution claims that the injuries were self inflicted. Well, that’s the whole point, isn’t it? What do the paramedics say? When they examined his nose, what did they see? Was Zimmerman videotaped when he giving his statement? If so, this is more evidence that the prosecution could presumably use to show that Zimmerman was not injured after the shooting. At the end of that 5 hour visit, black eyes and swelling should have been apparent. A Zimmerman without these signs, who is breathing out of his nose, raises questions that require good answers. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1229 "2012-05-16T03:41:27Z")
ABC News: > [@](#): > > Moments after the shooting Zimmerman told eyewitnesses he shot Martin in self defense. He later told officers his head was being pounded into the pavement and that he feared for his life, but that it was only when Martin seemed to reach for the gun wedges in his waistband that Zimmerman drew his weapon and fired directly into Martin’s chest – killing him. I find this part of the article suspect. Zimmerman was taking a beating but only when Martin reached(or appeared to) for the gun did he draw and shoot. Not one Z punch thrown. No struggle for the gun. I’ve read in another article that Zimmerman “forgot he had the gun on him.” ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1230 "2012-05-16T03:54:36Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > ABC News: > > I find this part of the article suspect. Zimmerman was taking a beating but only when Martin reached(or appeared to) for the gun did he draw and shoot. Not one Z punch thrown. No struggle for the gun. I’ve read in another article that Zimmerman “forgot he had the gun on him.” If you believe Zimmerman’s account, Martin caught him by surprise, knocking him down. It’s not easy to punch lying on your back. Try it sometime. No leverage. The person on top always has an advantage. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1231 "2012-05-16T13:05:35Z")
Um, I have tried it. Not easy is not the same as impossible. My point was that he only made the decision to defend himself after Martin supposedly reached for the gun. Was Zimmerman willing to get beat down until the cops showed up? According to accounts of Zimmerman account, he was in fear inside his truck but still followed and he was in fear before Martin ‘reached’ for the gun but did nothing to defend himself until then. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1232 "2012-05-16T13:25:09Z")
Maybe the guy that took pictures of George’s bleeding head also took pictures of these other injuries that night. Although you’d think we’d have seen it by now. But for me, it doesn’t matter. If George had not been following Trayvon in the first place, none of this would have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1233 "2012-05-16T14:55:41Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > According to accounts of Zimmerman account, he was in fear inside his truck but still followed and he was in fear before Martin ‘reached’ for the gun but did nothing to defend himself until then. I think this may (possibly ironically) be one of the defense’s biggest problems - it seems possible that he laid on the statements to support a “fear of death or serious bodily injury” a little thick, and some of them may not be consistent with the evidence or each other. (eg; if he said he was calling for help and also said that he was being suffocated just before the shot was fired, and this seems contrary to what we hear on the audio, it makes it appear that he was consciously constructing a narrative that clears him, and casts doubt on his other statements.) ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1234 "2012-05-16T15:12:09Z")
Assuming the news report of the evidence is correct, it looks like those that are absolutely set in their opinions that Zimmerman is guilty will claim the medical evidence was wrong/faked etc. even when the evidence is not necessarily exculpatory. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1235 "2012-05-16T15:29:57Z")
Like I said before, it doesn’t seem like the State is all that concerned about his injuries. But because the defense seems to be making such a big deal about it, the prosecution will probably find ways to minimize it in the attempt to undermine Zimmerman’s insistence that he was in serious danger. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1236 "2012-05-16T15:58:01Z")
The medical report WAS faked!! Typewriters didn’t have that particular typeface back then. Plus if you look at the date of the report, it’s 8/4/61. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1237 "2012-05-16T16:17:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Like I said before, it doesn’t seem like the State is all that concerned about his injuries. But because the defense seems to be making such a big deal about it, the prosecution will probably find ways to minimize it in the attempt to undermine Zimmerman’s insistence that he was in serious danger. So - Zimmerman has a broken nose, black eyes, and head wounds. Martin has no injuries (apart from the bullet wound) and broken skin on the knuckles. This evidence kinda supports Zimmerman version of events, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1238 "2012-05-16T16:22:06Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So - Zimmerman has a broken nose, black eyes, and head wounds. Martin has no injuries (apart from the bullet wound) and broken skin on the knuckles. This evidence kinda supports Zimmerman version of events, doesn’t it? Perhaps Zimmerman was using his nose to repeatedly strike Martin’s knuckles. That would explain why Martin was screaming for help. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1239 "2012-05-16T16:25:46Z")
His injuries were minor enough that he declined treatment. If you think a broken nose justifies murdering someone, then you’re a sick puppy. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1240 "2012-05-16T16:29:03Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Still left unanswered, though, is whether Martin attacked Zimmerman without provocation. Even if Zimmerman got his nose punched etc, that doesn’t mean he can shoot his way of a fight. > > If Zimmerman had his a nose broken severe enough to leave him with 2 black eyes, why in the hell did he delay medical care until the next day? This on top of a wounded head that had supposedly been pounded on the ground. Forget about spending 5 hours at the PD without going to the ER. How does the defense explain this? Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. The injuries don’t show who started the fight, but _unless_ the prosecution can convince the jury that the injuries were self-inflicted after that night I don’t see how they don’t _help_ Zimmerman’s narrative that it was self defense. You yourself have been **very** hung up on Zimmerman’s apparent lack of injuries in early video tapes. That highlights that to the “man on the street” injuries will create a strong subconscious feeling as to whether we’re talking a legitimate case of self defense or not. In light of that I think it entirely reasonable to say these injuries **help** Zimmerman’s defense. No one said they acquit him, and depending on the totality of the circumstances, they may prove irrelevant (for example if clear evidence exists Zimmerman started the fight, or that he was not prone when he shot Martin or etc.) However all the other questions you ask, like why didn’t he get immediate treatment, how does the defense explain that and etc–by and large I don’t think the defense has to explain that much. All they have to say is Zimmerman felt roughed up but not so much he needed to be in the ER, and he was more concerned with resolving things with the police, or something. But they only _really_ have to worry about explaining any of that **if** the prosecution can rebut the claim that they were injuries from the fight. If the prosecution can’t get a single EMT or police officer to testify that they didn’t think Zimmerman had a broken nose, or didn’t think he had black eyes or etc then there is essentially no actual rebuttal to the claim of the injuries being fight injuries. Corey can plan that seed, but my contention is there is no way in that scenario all 12 jurors believe that they were self-inflicted. An EMT or police officer who gives vague or uncertain testimony about the injuries would make the rebuttal stronger, but again not sure you can convince all 12 jurors the injuries are self-inflicted. To be honest, even if the injuries really are self-inflicted it was a smart thing for Zimmerman to do. There is no way to **prove** that they are, and their existence will sow doubt in the minds of **some** jurors, that’s without doubt. Anything on which there is confusion, ambiguity, or disagreement will mostly favor the defense in a criminal prosecution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=61) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=63)