# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 621
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12404 "2013-07-12T17:12:54Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > As O’Mara might say, “Seriously? Really?”. Well, as gz would say “I swear…dontcha believe me?” ---
**Author:** ![Tollhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e99b99/32.png) [@Tollhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tollhouse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12405 "2013-07-12T17:15:02Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Your opinion on your spelling/grammar/punctuation skills are at least as cogent as your oh-so-insightful opinions on this case. And “.wow, thats like double both ways” > > I’d ask about the “Miss Brown” comment (is the “Brown” part a racist way of saying that you think black people are bad at grammar and spelling? Is the “Miss” a covert way for you to say girls aren’t smart? Is it a reference–albeit an incoherent one–to the wonderful song popularized by Billie Holliday?), but I’ve chosen not to ask as it’s probably best not to plumb the depths of your psyche. Because I mistook you for a third grade grammar teacher, or a wannabe third grade grammar teacher ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12406 "2013-07-12T17:17:41Z")
> [@Tollhouse](#): > > Because I mistook you for a third grade grammar teacher, or a wannabe third grade grammar teacher I actually AM an English professor. Would you like my feedback? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12407 "2013-07-12T17:23:17Z")
Yeah, I forget I’m wearing my glasses all the time … except when I need to read something, then I’m keenly aware that they’re on my face. So if Zimmerman - who presumably had a concealed weapon permit “just in case” - had really forgotten that he was even carrying his gun, when he spotted the crazed potentially armed druggie, and got out of his car to follow him, he wouldn’t have been keenly aware of what he was totin’ around just in case he needed it? That dog won’t hunt. ---
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12408 "2013-07-12T17:24:37Z")
Hawaii’s, Iowa’d loofah ewer pine on. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12409 "2013-07-12T17:38:39Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Yeah, I forget I’m wearing my glasses all the time … except when I need to read something, then I’m keenly aware that they’re on my face. > > So if Zimmerman - who presumably had a concealed weapon permit “just in case” - had really forgotten that he was even carrying his gun, when he spotted the crazed potentially armed druggie, and got out of his car to follow him, he wouldn’t have been keenly aware of what he was totin’ around just in case he needed it? > > That dog won’t hunt. It makes perfect sense that, if he wasn’t planning to catch up with martin, that he wouldn’t be thinking about ways to harm him. So, once again, his story is consistent. It’s not proof, of course, but proof isn’t needed. The only way to reach your conclusion is to prejudge him guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12410 "2013-07-12T17:42:19Z")
I’ll try to answer all of the questions that I think were directed at me. I plan to be carrying a Glock 30 in a Comp-Tac CTAC holster. Great holster, incidentally, and good customer service. I am surprised at just how comfortable it is, actually. Very tuckable too, even with your statement on no liability if accidentally revealing the pistol. You do end up scrutinizing people a lot more to see if they’re carrying too. I was expecting a lot worse. But I still notice it and it is annoying. Not as annoying as carrying a full-sized pistol would be though. The P380 I also have is much smaller but I also notice that one too. Even without running. If you say he wouldn’t have noticed his pistol while running, O.K., if you say so; I just find it really hard to believe. As to why he’d have lied, who knows? Perhaps he felt it’d make him more sympathetic, perhaps he felt it was a good idea to do so at the time, maybe he actually didn’t remember wearing it when he was recounting the tale. Criminal defendants’ stories are inconsistent in interviews for lots of reasons. At least that’s what my friends who practice criminal law on both sides tell me. Even if it degrades my estimate of his credibility of the rest of his story, I don’t think it, or his explanation of why he left the truck, ultimately negates his story of how the encounter ended. For me, certainly not beyond a reasonable doubt. We’ll see if the jury agrees in a few hours. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12411 "2013-07-12T18:19:49Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > (And while I agree with the practice of finding clothes that won’t “print” the gun, do be aware that printing and/or having your shirt blow open is NOT illegal in Texas. It’s only a crime if you “intentionally fail to conceal.” I once accidentally had my outer shirt tucked behind my pistol in an OWB holster in a crowded store. Oddly, nobody noticed except for a policeman outside who kindly informed me that my gun was showing.) That’s something I have trouble wrapping my head around. In Kentucky, anyone can open carry, no permit required, you just have to be 21+ and legally allowed to possess a firearm. When I worked retail, I’d see someone come into the store carrying openly about every two weeks, and a few more around town. Weird to think of open carry being illegal but concealed not. > [@Gray Ghost](#): > > I’ll try to answer all of the questions that I think were directed at me. I plan to be carrying a Glock 30 in a Comp-Tac CTAC holster. Great holster, incidentally, and good customer service. I am surprised at just how comfortable it is, actually. Very tuckable too, even with your statement on no liability if accidentally revealing the pistol. You do end up scrutinizing people a lot more to see if they’re carrying too. A Glock 30 is a good sized pistol, though. It weighs 24 ounces, fully twice as much as Zimmerman’s Kel-Tec, and larger: 6.77" inches long, 4.76" high. It’s closer to my all-steel Sig-Saur than to Zimmerman’s Kel-Tec. If it’s been more than about two weeks and it’s still uncomfortable, than you may want to look for a different setup. > [@Gray Ghost](#): > > I was expecting a lot worse. But I still notice it and it is annoying. Not as annoying as carrying a full-sized pistol would be though. The P380 I also have is much smaller but I also notice that one too. Even without running. > > If you say he wouldn’t have noticed his pistol while running, O.K., if you say so; I just find it really hard to believe. I’m not saying he would or wouldn’t have, just that it’s not surprising or implausible that he wouldn’t. I came fairly close to buying his exact pistol (I ended up with a .380 instead), and handled it for a while at the friendly local gun shop, and it is both tiny and extremely lightweight for a 9mm. That’s Kel-Tec’s speciality, in fact. I know that I can carry a .380 that weighs 40% more than the Kel-Tec, and not notice it at all. If Zimmerman was trucking around with a 34 ounce, 7.7" Sig P226, I’d be extremely skeptical. A little Kel-Tec? Not really. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12412 "2013-07-12T18:31:38Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > I’m personally interested in getting more advice from the people who haven’t been through a concealed handgun training class, haven’t passed the written test, haven’t passed the shooting test, haven’t sent their information and fingerprints to the FBI for the background check, and haven’t carried a pistol 24/7. You think Zimmerman put his extensive testing and training to good use and exercised good judgement that night, then? ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12413 "2013-07-12T18:53:01Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > You think Zimmerman put his extensive testing and training to good use and exercised good judgement that night, then? In the first encounter, no. Getting out of his truck was stupid and showed poor judgment. But it wasn’t illegal. In the second encounter, yes. In fact, I’ve said before that given his sequence of events and the level of injuries, he showed more restraint than I would have under the circumstances. He allowed himself to get hit before he fired. I wouldn’t have. IOW, I would have, in the circumstances of his narrative of events, pulled my gun sooner. And I would have very likely pulled the trigger more than once. ETA: That sounds too much like Monday morning quarterbacking. I should say that I _think_ I would have pulled my gun sooner and shot more than once. But that’s as I sit here in the safety of my house. Obviously, I can’t say with certainly what the hell I’d do under stress. ---
**Author:** ![DragonAsh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/db5fbb/32.png) [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12414 "2013-07-12T18:54:38Z")
Since the jury is now into deliberations - let me say that obviously, I haven’t necessarily agreed with everyone in this thread. And I don’t think any of us changed our minds about anything (with the possible exception of JoelUpchurch 😃 ). I think Zimmerman should be convicted of manslaughter. I expect that he will be acquitted on all charges, but no matter the outcome I am not going to think that the jury’s decision validates or invalidates anyone’s opinion on the case. We looked at the facts of the case for over a year - really, we probably looked at more evidence for a much longer time than any of the jurors ever will - and fought for our opinion. In essence, I’m trying to say that I enjoyed this thread. Even learned a thing or two despite it all. So thanks to everyone for the debate, and special thanks to **Stoid** for starting the thread, and to \*\*Bricker \*\*for his legal discussions. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12415 "2013-07-12T18:56:38Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > Since the jury is now into deliberations - let me say that obviously, I haven’t necessarily agreed with everyone in this thread. And I don’t think any of us changed our minds about anything (with the possible exception of JoelUpchurch 😃 ). > > I think Zimmerman should be convicted of manslaughter. I expect that he will be acquitted on all charges, but no matter the outcome I am not going to think that the jury’s decision validates or invalidates anyone’s opinion on the case. We looked at the facts of the case for over a year - really, we probably looked at more evidence for a much longer time than any of the jurors ever will - and fought for our opinion. > > In essence, I’m trying to say that I enjoyed this thread. Even learned a thing or two despite it all. So thanks to everyone for the debate, and a special thanks to Bricker for his legal discussions. Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12416 "2013-07-12T19:02:24Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > In the first encounter, no. Getting out of his truck was stupid and showed poor judgment. But it wasn’t illegal. > > In the second encounter, yes. In fact, I’ve said before that given his sequence of events and the level of injuries, he showed more restraint than I would have under the circumstances. He allowed himself to get hit before he fired. I wouldn’t have. IOW, I would have, in the circumstances of his narrative of events, pulled my gun sooner. And I would have very likely pulled the trigger more than once. I find this remarkable. If you were Zimmerman, you wouldn’t even have allowed Martin to get near you before you just started blazing away, because, what … if you didn’t there’s a real possiblity that you might get punched in the face? On the other hand, Martin was completely outside of his rights to punch Zimmerman for being in fear that he might get shot. Or, fuck that, that he might get punched in the face too. Again, this just illustrates how fucked up Florida’s laws are. If you are afraid of someone, just make sure you kill them and all is good. But then again, apparently only people who carry guns are allowed to be afraid of getting punched. Remind me why it’s a good idea that people like you carry around concealed weapons again? ---
**Author:** ![IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ea666f/32.png) [@IgnoranceIsMyExcuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IgnoranceIsMyExcuse)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12417 "2013-07-12T19:07:26Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Again, this just illustrates how fucked up Florida’s laws are. If you are afraid of someone, just make sure you kill them and all is good. But then again, apparently only people who carry guns are allowed to be afraid of getting punched. Remind me why it’s a good idea that people like you carry around concealed weapons again? Not so remarkable - Torts professors often say that it’s cheaper to kill your victim than to maim him. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12418 "2013-07-12T19:08:45Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > I find this remarkable. If you were Zimmerman, you wouldn’t even have allowed Martin to get near you before you just started blazing away, because, what … if you didn’t there’s a real possiblity that you might get punched in the face? On the other hand, Martin was completely outside of his rights to punch Zimmerman for being in fear that he might get shot. Or, fuck that, that he might get punched in the face too. > > Again, this just illustrates how fucked up Florida’s laws are. If you are afraid of someone, just make sure you kill them and all is good. But then again, apparently only people who carry guns are allowed to be afraid of getting punched. Remind me why it’s a good idea that people like you carry around concealed weapons again? Per the Sheriff who was my instructor in my CHL class, I decided that I would not allow a threatening person to get within my personal space. Even though there is no duty to retreat in Florida (or Texas) I would still try to retreat if I could, but I would certainly have my hand on my pistol or have it drawn. I learned that lesson before I obtained my license, when a fellow approached my car at a stop sign and before I knew it, had brandished a knife. So no, you don’t get to invade an area where I have a legal right to be, and threaten force. There is no legal requirement that you have to actually allow yourself to be the victim of a physical attack before you use force, up to and including deadly force, to protect yourself. Don’t like it? Don’t live in Florida, Texas, or another state with similar laws. Don’t carry a gun. I decided a long time ago that my own life is worth more to me than yours, Trayvon Martin’s, or anyone else’s. If it ever comes down to it, I’d much rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12419 "2013-07-12T20:16:33Z")
The biggest division of perspective in this case is not race, it’s fear. There are people, lots of them, whose POV is profoundly shaped by a core belief that life is brimming with threats of all kinds and they need to be prepared. These people tend to think that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. And it’s not a put down to say this, I’m not calling such people pussies. It’s just a fundamental difference in worldview. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12420 "2013-07-12T20:23:10Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The biggest division of perspective in this case is not race, it’s fear. There are people, lots of them, whose POV is profoundly shaped by a core belief that life is brimming with threats of all kinds and they need to be prepared. These people tend to think that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. > > And it’s not a put down to say this, I’m not calling such people pussies. It’s just a fundamental difference in worldview. I tend to agree, but would take issue with the characterization as “fear.” I’ve been driving now for 17 years, and I’ve never been in any sort of accident. But I continue to carry full coverage on all my vehicles, because you just never know. I wouldn’t say I “fear” getting into a wreck…I just want to be prepared if I do. Likewise, I’ve carried a gun for 7 years, and I’ve never had to even reach for it. I just see it as an insurance policy. But you’re right–there’s a fundamental difference in worldview between those who have a plan for self-defense that includes lethal force, and those who don’t. I said before in the discussion that I have at least 1 friend who would never kill another person, even if she herself was being killed. I can’t fathom that, but ultimately it’s her right. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12421 "2013-07-12T20:34:54Z")
> [@DragonAsh](#): > > And I don’t think any of us changed our minds about anything (with the possible exception of JoelUpchurch 😃 ). I changed my mind, but it was pretty early on, and I still ended up with the same opinion of how the trial will likely end. I am reasonably certain from the evidence presented that not only were many of Zimmerman’s actions that night ill conceived, a few were down right negligent. And it doesn’t take any more effort to imagine a scenario in which he antagonizes the situation, than it does to imagine the one he has presented. > [@](#): > > In essence, I’m trying to say that I enjoyed this thread. Even learned a thing or two despite it all. I concur. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12422 "2013-07-12T20:36:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The biggest division of perspective in this case is not race, it’s fear. There are people, lots of them, whose POV is profoundly shaped by a core belief that life is brimming with threats of all kinds and they need to be prepared. These people tend to think that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. > > And it’s not a put down to say this, I’m not calling such people pussies. It’s just a fundamental difference in worldview. I have an emergency kit at home: > [@So, what should a home emergency kit contain?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-what-should-a-home-emergency-kit-contain/319692/23): > > Here’s what I have in mine: > > [ul] > [li]fire extinguisher[/li][li]flare gun and flares[/li][li]two empty five gallon cans, suitable for gas or water[/li][li]25 gallons of water[/li][li]water distillation kit and purification tablets[/li][li]two can-openers[/li][li]one case Sterno cans[/li][li]15 pounds canned Spam[/li][li]15 pounds canned tuna[/li][li]30 pounds canned assorted cooked vegetables[/li][li]powered milk and baby formula[/li][li]2 complete first aid kits, including syrup of ipecac and activated charcoal[/li][li]1 sting kit with epinephrine[/li][li]small collection of antibiotics and sulfa powder[/li][li]supply of batteries[/li][li]battery-operated shock-resistant radio [/li][li]handheld CB radio[/li][li]tool kit[/li][li]six rolls duct tape[/li][li]waterproof matches[/li][li]candles[/li][li]Coleman lantern and fuel[/li][li]compass and handheld GPS[/li][li]toilet paper and moist towelettes[/li][li]tampons[/li][li]three sleeping bags[/li][li]rain ponchos[/li][li]work gloves and work boots[/li][li]utility and hunting knives[/li][li]shovel, pick, spade[/li][li]12 ga. shotgun and shells - buck and birdshot[/li][li]15 Canadian maple-leaf gold coins[/li][li]$1500 cash[/li][/ul] > > On the budget to buy this year: satellite phone. > > I firmly believe luck favors the prepared. Since I made that post eight years ago, I bought the satellite phone and upgraded it last year. I sold some of the gold because gold got so crazy high that I could sell 5 of my coins and cover the cost for all 15 as I paid it. Every year I donate the half the canned food and replace it. If, in the unlikely even that disaster strike and I need this stuff, I can almost guarantee that someone will say it was just pure luck that I happened to have it. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12423 "2013-07-12T20:38:22Z")
I haven’t been following this case too closely but I heard the prosecution suggest that Zimmerman wouldn’t have been able to pull out his gun, being on his waist, with Trayvon still on top of him. Watching Zimmermans explanation of that moment, I was under the impression the gun was holstered higher on his body. Is there anything to this line of thought? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=620) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=622)