# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 622
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12424 "2013-07-12T20:42:15Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > But you’re right–there’s a fundamental difference in worldview between those who have a plan for self-defense that includes lethal force, and those who don’t. I said before in the discussion that I have at least 1 friend who would never kill another person, even if she herself was being killed. I can’t fathom that, but ultimately it’s her right. My friends will tell you: I am the ultimate peacenik. I am a peacenik in ways that go far beyond actual violence itself; The vast majority of emotions that lead to violence and harm between people I do not even experience for the most part. ( I generally feel rage exclusively towards inanimate objects and flies) And of course, I am a total pussy. I can’t even kill things that need killing, like horribly wounded wild animals. Pussy, pussy, pussy. I have thought about what I would do if faced with life threatening situation. It is incredibly difficult to imagine even under such threat being able to shoot a gun to cause someone else to die. It just is so outside anything I relate to on any level… Well, I can only hope that I will never have to be faced with such a decision. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12425 "2013-07-12T20:42:44Z")
When you carry a handgun, the handle rides higher than your waist. Hard to describe, and different holsters will change the placement some, but most of mine put the grip up over where my lovehandles would be. Plus, fights generally aren’t static, so there’s no real telling exactly when he’d have been able or unable to pull the gun once he’s on the ground. The only thing we know as a fact is that the gun came out and one shot was fired. I saw the photo of his gun and holster, and I guess I was mistaken because it looks like an OWB one, but Zimmerman said it’s IWB. Does anyone know if it had a retention strap? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12426 "2013-07-12T20:44:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have an emergency kit at home: > > . Damn, Bricker, apocalypse much?:eek: ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12427 "2013-07-12T20:46:47Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > The biggest division of perspective in this case is not race, it’s fear. There are people, lots of them, whose POV is profoundly shaped by a core belief that life is brimming with threats of all kinds and they need to be prepared. These people tend to think that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. > > And it’s not a put down to say this, I’m not calling such people pussies. It’s just a fundamental difference in worldview. I think you nailed it pretty well. Not ashamed to say I probably fall more into that category than the converse, which is being shocked an baffled that protection wasn’t provided for you when life"s little nasties crop up. I don’t have firearms for personal protection, but I do: wear a helmet when I bicycle wear a helmet when I motorcycle wear full protective equipment when I play hockey make sure my shoe laces are always tied wear my flotation device when I kayak drive defensively look both ways crossing the street avoid high crime areas stay off the roads around bar closing time ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12428 "2013-07-12T20:47:38Z")
It is a cheap nylon right-handed IWB holster, probably Uncle Mike’s. No retention strap in the photos. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12429 "2013-07-12T20:47:45Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > I have thought about what I would do if faced with life threatening situation. It is incredibly difficult to imagine even under such threat being able to shoot a gun to cause someone else to die. It just is so outside anything I relate to on any level… Well, I can only hope that I will never have to be faced with such a decision. I own guns and am a concealed handgun permit holder in my state. I have a home defense weapon and am prepared to use it to protect my family’s safety. But I pray that God never sends that choice to me. To kill a human being would haunt me forever. I would do it, because I would place my family’s safety above an intruder bent on harm… but I can tell you if the intruder was simply stealing my stuff, I’d be locked in the bedroom and on the phone to 911. I don’t own a thing worth killing over. But if that intruder were to pose a threat to my safety, my wife’s safety, or my son’s safety, I would act. Please, never let that be true. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12430 "2013-07-12T20:48:20Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > My friends will tell you: I am the ultimate peacenik. I am a peacenik in ways that go far beyond actual violence itself; The vast majority of emotions that lead to violence and harm between people I do not even experience for the most part. ( I generally feel rage exclusively towards inanimate objects and flies) And of course, I am a total pussy. I can’t even kill things that need killing, like horribly wounded wild animals. Pussy, pussy, pussy. > > I have thought about what I would do if faced with life threatening situation. It is incredibly difficult to imagine even under such threat being able to shoot a gun to cause someone else to die. It just is so outside anything I relate to on any level… Well, I can only hope that I will never have to be faced with such a decision. I love to go hunting, but I don’t kill anything. For me, it’s enough to put a deer in the scope and just think “gotcha.” I don’t like the taste of wild game, anyway. And I can’t in good conscience begin to clean or skin a fish until it’s dead. I’ve had to put a couple of horribly wounded animals out of their misery, and didn’t enjoy it at all. And I desperately hope that I never, ever face a situation where I have to kill a human being. But I know in my heart of hearts that, if it comes up, it will be a matter of my life versus his/her life, and I’m comfortable with that. At least, that’s what I think right now. Maybe if the time comes I wouldn’t have the nerve to pull the trigger–I can’t say. But I do have to admit that I was raised in Texas, where one of our many sayings is “There’s more men that need killin’ than horses that need stealin’.” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12431 "2013-07-12T20:49:31Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Damn, Bricker, apocalypse much?:eek: If I never use any of it, except to donate to my local FISH outlet periodically, great. But if I need it, I have it, and I’ll be in better shape than other people wondering why FEMA is taking so long to get to us. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12432 "2013-07-12T20:56:16Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Damn, Bricker, apocalypse much?:eek: Stoid, I’m guessing you are a city girl that has most always had dependable water and power services. Halve the tuna and spam and that is pretty much what ma and pa kept on hand when we lived in the sticks. When power outages from storms are often assured to be measured in days and the well pump doesn’t run without the electricity (well ok, we did still have an old hand pump), you need to be a bit prepared. Especially in snow country. Now almost half a century later and affordable generators, practical vehicles with all wheel drive, and cell / satellite phones has made the inconvenience and concern much less, but not entirely eliminated it. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12433 "2013-07-12T21:03:15Z")
> [@BlakeTyner](#): > > I love to go hunting, but I don’t kill anything. For me, it’s enough to put a deer in the scope and just think “gotcha.” You are my hero! Many years ago there was a very intense thread On the subject of hunting… The intensity was primarily between me and Scylla. He was absolutely insisting that hunting could not be enjoyed without the kill, while simultaneously insisting that he did not enjoy killing. He went into elaborate descriptions of the many emotions attached to stalking and finding and killing and being in the woods and enjoying nature etc., And I said to him then why not just do all of those other things and leave out the part where you kill the animal? He said the kill was part of it, and I said then you enjoy killing, and then he would get infuriated and insist that that wasn’t true. I’m sure I misremembering but I think it went on like that back-and-forth for weeks and hundreds of posts. So for you to step right up and say I love to hunt but I skip the kill is awesome. Cool excellent you’re my hero. Incidentally just to be clear: the debate with Scylla wasn’t about my finding hunting evil or wanting to stop people from hunting, I was expressing my personal feeling that I would never be friends with someone _who found pleasure in the act of killing._ Scylla objected to my characterization of sport hunters as people who take pleasure in killing, but, as I described, could never really articulate how it impossible to divorce the kill from the hunt and still enjoy it while insisting that he didn’t enjoy the kill.:dubious::rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12434 "2013-07-12T21:07:36Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Stoid, I’m guessing you are a city girl that has most always had dependable water and power services. You guessed absolutely right! I have spent my entire life in and around Hollywood, California, the land of dreams… Where we can always depend on our ability to steal the water from other states. But my kin are real barefoot hillbillies in Smoky mountains… It probably doesn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12435 "2013-07-12T21:08:48Z")
If I had to hunt and fish to eat, then I certainly would, although I just personally don’t take pleasure in killing animals. I’m one of those people who just puts mice outside, or (as much as they give me the willies) relocates snakes that get too close to the house. But yeah, I enjoy all of the other aspects–the being in the woods, watching the critters do their thing, listening for sounds…I just have no taste for game and no use for putting an animal’s head on my wall. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12436 "2013-07-12T22:03:25Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > You guessed absolutely right! I have spent my entire life in and around Hollywood, California, the land of dreams… Where we can always depend on our ability to steal the water from other states. > > But my kin are real barefoot hillbillies in Smoky mountains… It probably doesn’t count. Then you should have an earthquake kit that is not much different from Bricker’s list: > **[Preparing Your Earthquake Survival Kit](https://www.latimes.com/la-me-disaster17sep17-side-htmlstory.html)** I was in the LA quake. Thanks to my standard collection of backpacking stuff, I didn’t worry about water or food. I was cooking for my apartment complex for a day on my charcoal grill and supplementing with my backpacking stove. ---
**Author:** ![Hbns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hbns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hbns)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12437 "2013-07-12T22:32:44Z")
Stoid this isn’t Florida, but I thought you might be interested. Here is a guy who thought he was in imminent harm and struck first. Turns out, it wasn’t a good idea. [Andover: Ex-Minneapolis cop gets 43 months in prison for punching bar patron](http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_23643134/former-minneapolis-cop-sentenced-andover-bar-assault-by) > [@](#): > > Clifford’s defense painted him at trial as a highly trained officer who read Vander Lee’s drunken, abrasive body language and, anticipating a punch, opted to defend himself and strike first. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12438 "2013-07-12T22:48:10Z")
> [@Hbns](#): > > Stoid this isn’t Florida, but I thought you might be interested. Here is a guy who thought he was in imminent harm and struck first. Turns out, it wasn’t a good idea. > > [Andover: Ex-Minneapolis cop gets 43 months in prison for punching bar patron](http://www.twincities.com/localnews/ci_23643134/former-minneapolis-cop-sentenced-andover-bar-assault-by) Let’s see, Self-Defense Guy is annoyed at noisy drunk guy that was already there when he and his family sat down. Tries to get the drunk guy to be quieter by telling him to be so. Drunk guy does not quiet down. Self Defense Guy gets up and goes over to drunk guy and gives him shit. Then claims he fears drunk Guy will punch him so he punches first. That is what is known as an incredibly ballsy attempt to get out of a straightforward assault charge. Guilty, guilty, guilty. Give me a fucking break. That guy would be convicted anywhere. Even Florida. It would have been interesting to see how it might have gone down if the drunk guy had hit him, and then he had punched him back and messed up his brain. Because it’s relatively clear from the article that self-defense guy was provoking it. I would be interested to read cases where provocation prevented a self-defense acquittal Just to see what the law has treated as justifiably provocative behavior to excuse a violent response. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12439 "2013-07-12T22:50:15Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I asked a friend of mine with a CHL about that–he says that it’s like wearing glasses–you kinda know you are if you think about it, but if you don’t think about it you eventually don’t really notice it. His opinion was that while it was possible for Zimmerman to not think about it under stressful circumstances, he didn’t think it was likely. > > Me? I dunno. If the analogy is “glasses”, I’ve certainly forgotten I’m wearing them, but I’ve never gotten to the stage where I started looking for glasses I was already wearing. I wear glasses, a wallet and carry a cell everyday – you bet your sweet peppy I notice if I leave home with all of them. Takes no longer than a block either before I bitch and turn around to get either one. I’ll grant you, takes even less when I forget my car keys. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12440 "2013-07-12T23:04:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I own guns and am a concealed handgun permit holder in my state. I have a home defense weapon and am prepared to use it to protect my family’s safety. > > But I pray that God never sends that choice to me. To kill a human being would haunt me forever. I would do it, because I would place my family’s safety above an intruder bent on harm… but I can tell you if the intruder was simply stealing my stuff, I’d be locked in the bedroom and on the phone to 911. I don’t own a thing worth killing over. > > But if that intruder were to pose a threat to my safety, my wife’s safety, or my son’s safety, I would act. > > Please, never let that be true. I used to own a 9mm S&W in my mid-20s. Turns out my GF at the time noticed they were breaking into one one of my apt in my building on a Sunday morning. Saw it all though my peephole – sweating bullets (pun meant) I went out, gun-cocked and pointed at the guy. Realized just simply couldn’t shoot the guy though I was more than legally covered…held him at gun-point till the cops got here, then I put my gun down and proceeded to punch the fuck out of him while the cops watched. Realized than I don’t have the balls to shoot anyone anyone in cold blood. So what was the use of my carrying? Which leads to my (much later) story. I’ll fight or flee (likely flee now a days if I can; too old for this shit) but a weapon is not for me – though I do keep a bat both in car and home…plus alarms. Plenty enough for my fears. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12441 "2013-07-12T23:08:02Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > It is a cheap nylon right-handed IWB holster, probably Uncle Mike’s. No retention strap in the photos. Zimmerman is left-handed. If someone is straddling you to the knees, how do you reach your left hand to get your gun from your holster that’s on the right side of your back? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12442 "2013-07-12T23:11:28Z")
Someone who forgets they are carrying a gun has no business carrying a goddamn gun. They also have no business playing a cop and approaching people they’ve already deemed a criminal. That’s just plain stupid. But this is irrelevant because there’s no way in hell Zimmerman forgot he was carrying a gun. ---
**Author:** ![BlakeTyner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@BlakeTyner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlakeTyner)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/12443 "2013-07-12T23:15:21Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > Zimmerman is left-handed. If someone is straddling you to the knees, how do you reach your left hand to get your gun from your holster that’s on the right side of your back? Well, there’s the cross-draw with chest rotation, but that hasn’t been taught for a while. A guy in a CHL class shot himself in the chest practicing it (actually trying to manipulate the external safety with his off-hand trigger finger.) Or there’s the weak-hand draw. Extremely common. It could be a matter of mismatched hand/eye dominance, which is what I have. I’m right-handed, but my left eye is the dominant one, so I end up drawing right handed but establishing the sight picture with my left eye. Tried to train to overcome that, but I can’t. And, again, that holster wouldn’t slide all the way around to his back. It would be limited in travel by a belt loop. > [@monstro](#): > > Someone who forgets they are carrying a gun has no business carrying a goddamn gun. > > They also have no business playing a cop and approaching people they’ve already deemed a criminal. That’s just plain stupid. > > But this is irrelevant because there’s no way in hell Zimmerman forgot he was carrying a gun. And what kind of sidearm/holster combination do you use daily, and for how long? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=621) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=623)