# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 64
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1261 "2012-05-16T17:33:05Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Some random prosecutor charged him with 2nd degree murder. Not based upon your definition of murder. Based on the Florida definition of murder, which isn’t “shooting someone who isn’t trying to kill you makes you a murderer.” Corey will most assuredly not argue “Zimmerman was being injured but not being killed, making him a murderer.” Because to do so would make her factually incorrect about the law and bring great professional shame and a loss in court. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1262 "2012-05-16T17:33:45Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > This was actually a core part of a massive thread (now closed) and probably many different times in this thread so I’m loathe to get into it. But basically if a person can demonstrate to a jury that there was a situation in which a reasonable person would be in immediate fear of death or grave bodily injury they can justifiable use deadly force to stop the threat. > > That’s your answer. Just being able to say you are afraid is not a license to kill anyone for anyone reason. It’s about the totality of the situation, the relationship (if any) between the persons, the physical evidence, the consistency of the statements, basically as I said “the totality of the situation.” If the totality of that situation is one in which a reasonable person would be in immediate fear of death or grave bodily injury then they can use force, even deadly force, to protect themselves. How do we know the totality of the situation when one side of the encounter can’t tell their story. You know, being dead and all. Kinda impossible to know the totality of the situation then right? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1263 "2012-05-16T17:34:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Well then I find all of your opinions irrelevant. Case closed then? Discussion over? Whatever strikes your fancy, no skin off my back. > [@](#): > > Also, I’m pretty sure all he was saying was that to him that scenario is murder. I don’t recall him stating that it was the legal definition of murder at all. Where did he claim that? In a thread about a legal case the only definition of murder I care about is the legal one. Murder as a concept only exists in societies with laws. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1264 "2012-05-16T17:36:18Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > It is my argument is that if some isn’t trying to kill you, you probably shouldn’t shoot them. When someone is sitting on top of you, beating you up (having broken your nose) and slamming your head on the ground - how exactly do you determine whether the intent is to kill you or not? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1265 "2012-05-16T17:36:45Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > How do we know the totality of the situation when one side of the encounter can’t tell their story. You know, being dead and all. > > Kinda impossible to know the totality of the situation then right? You have to collect all available evidence, evaluate it, and come to a decision. We use juries for that. It’s not easy, clear cut, or simple. But they have to hear it and make a decision. Depending on the evidence available, in some like situations a prosecutor might decide before it gets to a jury, too. Court cases don’t only involve situations in which both sides get to tell their story. But it’s not the case that you just get to assume someone is guilty because they admit they pulled the trigger, they are entitled to raise a defense of self defense and the jury is bound to evaluate it and make a decision based on the rule of law (which includes a presumption of innocence and a starting point of believing the defendant is innocent and only through strong evidence beyond a reasonable doubt is the defendant to be judged guilty.) ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1266 "2012-05-16T17:39:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In a thread about a legal case the only definition of murder I care about is the legal one. Murder as a concept only exists in societies with laws. I don’t consider myself bound to discuss things in legal definitions. In water cooler parlance, he committed murder. If I gave a rat’s ass about legal terms I would have gone to law school. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1267 "2012-05-16T17:40:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > In a thread about a legal case the only definition of murder I care about is the legal one. Murder as a concept only exists in societies with laws. This is an OPINION thread about a current event. This is not Great Debates. Opinions are welcome and encouraged in a forum called IMHO. I can’t see how you can argue this. If you don’t want to hear anyone’s opinion, then start a GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1268 "2012-05-16T17:41:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When someone is sitting on top of you, beating you up (having broken your nose) and slamming your head on the ground - how exactly do you determine whether the intent is to kill you or not? If Martin was trying to kill him, he wouldn’t have gotten the shot off. If Martin was truly in a superior position of strength, he could have easily prevented Zimmerman from aiming his gun. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1269 "2012-05-16T17:42:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t consider myself bound to discuss things in legal definitions. In water cooler parlance, he committed murder. If I gave a rat’s ass about legal terms I would have gone to law school. I’ve never said you were bound. I just said random opinions based on personal definitions are irrelevant to a discussion about a legal case. I could define “guilty” to mean “I think he did something wrong” and “judge” to mean “pineapple vendor.” The great thing about the law is things actually have definitions unto themselves and aren’t just based on random opinion. (Although obviously opinions of judges over time influences their interpretation–however that is not at all akin to someone just freelancing opinions randomly with no legal training.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1270 "2012-05-16T17:44:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If Martin was trying to kill him, he wouldn’t have gotten the shot off. If Martin was truly in a superior position of strength, he could have easily prevented Zimmerman from aiming his gun. That’s a ludicrous Catch-22 scenario you’ve started. Look, everyone knows you have no real valid opinion on this case when you basically say you could never be convinced Zimmerman is legally not guilty and then create scenarios in which you say the only way it could be self defense is if it was impossible for Zimmerman to have acted in self defense. That’s the kind of logic they use to convict people in Kangaroo courts in the Soviet Union or condemn people to death for witchcraft. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1271 "2012-05-16T17:48:17Z")
I really wish certain people would understand that, for a lot of us, law and morality often have nothing to do with each other. Murder means an unjustified intentional killing. What Zimmerman becomes when convicted is a “convicted murderer.” If acquitted, then “acquited murderer.” To me, this case is about whether Florida law aligns with my morality in _how_ guilty Zimmerman is. Did he make a mistake, or is he a racist?. Either way he’s a murderer, but I can more easily forgive an idiot. Claiming shit that didn’t happen will definitely make me disinclined to believe he was just stupid, though. I do not condone lawyers lying. Note: options above not exhaustive. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1272 "2012-05-16T17:51:22Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > His injuries were minor enough that he declined treatment. If you think a broken nose justifies murdering someone, then you’re a sick puppy. If the nose was broken and Martin got up and walked away then it doesn’t justify murder. If it’s broken during a beat-down then it’s evidence of a beating just as the other injuries are. The state has to prove Zimmerman wasn’t in fear of his life so unless there is some indication that Martin intended to stop then Zimmerman had no way of knowing if it wasn’t deadly. Getting your head smashed against a solid object doesn’t require too many repetitions to trigger fear of death. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1273 "2012-05-16T17:55:11Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I really wish certain people would understand that, for a lot of us, law and morality often have nothing to do with each other. Murder means an unjustified intentional killing. What Zimmerman becomes when convicted is a “convicted murderer.” If acquitted, then “acquited murderer.” > > To me, this case is about whether Florida law aligns with my morality in _how_ guilty Zimmerman is. Did he make a mistake, or is he a racist?. Either way he’s a murderer, but I can more easily forgive an idiot. > > Claiming shit that didn’t happen will definitely make me disinclined to believe he was just stupid, though. I do not condone lawyers lying. > > Note: options above not exhaustive. So what you’re basically saying is regardless of what may have actually happened and what a jury decides, your personal opinion is paramount? That’s why it’s good we have a rule of law I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1274 "2012-05-16T17:55:38Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If Martin was trying to kill him, he wouldn’t have gotten the shot off. If Martin was truly in a superior position of strength, he could have easily prevented Zimmerman from aiming his gun. Your opinion. I think you’re wrong. As the injuries record shows, it is only Zimmerman that is injured. Thus, the version of events that says it was Martin beating Zimmerman up seems to be holding up. So, once again, can you tell me, when someone is sitting on you beating you up, resulting in injuries, how do you determine, during that beating, that his intent is not to kill? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1275 "2012-05-16T18:05:28Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > All that is required is fear and an ability to demonstrate to a jury that that fear was reasonable (or at least to enough jurors to make the conviction impossible.) GZ’s injuries do not rise to that standard, and he will denied the SYG defense. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1276 "2012-05-16T18:05:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That’s a ludicrous Catch-22 scenario you’ve started. I kinda agree. Under the **BobLibDem** approach, is there ever a scenario where a person meritoriously engages in lethal self-defense against an unarmed assailant? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1277 "2012-05-16T18:07:21Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Is it your argument that unless you have serious injuries, you should not be able to claim self-defense in a shooting? That is why this medical report also supports self defense on the part of Travon Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1278 "2012-05-16T18:07:44Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I kinda agree. Under the **BobLibDem** approach, is there ever a scenario where a person meritoriously engages in lethal self-defense against an unarmed assailant? Right, his assumption is you can’t. But it’s easy to construct a scenario that makes his approach seem moronic. What if you’re a 5’1" 105 lb woman and a 6’5" 250 lb man is coming after you? How many punches do you think that woman is able to take before she is in danger of dying? How long do you think it would take that man to inflict a mortal wound on her with nothing other than his natural weapons? What if he only wants to drag her to his place and rape her a few dozen times, with no desire to kill her. I guess that would be an unjustified shooting, eh? I’ve known a few people who think you shouldn’t kill someone to stop them from raping you, and that’s fine as a personal opinion. But I’m damn happy that’s not the way the law is written. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1279 "2012-05-16T18:09:11Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > GZ’s injuries do not rise to that standard, and he will denied the SYG defense. Possible. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1280 "2012-05-16T18:12:12Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your opinion. I think you’re wrong. > > As the injuries record shows, it is only Zimmerman that is injured. Thus, the version of events that says it was Martin beating Zimmerman up seems to be holding up. So, once again, can you tell me, when someone is sitting on you beating you up, resulting in injuries, how do you determine, during that beating, that his intent is not to kill? If someone was on top of me beating me up, I would not be able to draw my gun so it wouldn’t make any difference what the hell I was afraid of. I think it’s far from established that Martin had Zimmerman in such a poor position. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=63) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=65)