# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1281 "2012-05-16T18:25:40Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Right, his assumption is you can’t. But it’s easy to construct a scenario that makes his approach seem moronic. > > What if you’re a 5’1" 105 lb woman and a 6’5" 250 lb man is coming after you? How many punches do you think that woman is able to take before she is in danger of dying? How long do you think it would take that man to inflict a mortal wound on her with nothing other than his natural weapons? What if he only wants to drag her to his place and rape her a few dozen times, with no desire to kill her. I guess that would be an unjustified shooting, eh? I’ve known a few people who think you shouldn’t kill someone to stop them from raping you, and that’s fine as a personal opinion. But I’m damn happy that’s not the way the law is written. If Zimmerman was a 5’1" 105 lb woman and Martin was a 6’5" 250 lb man I might agree with you. Or if Zimmerman was a dwarf and Martin was a tyrannosaurus. Of if Zimmerman was Fay Wray and Martin was King Kong. But it wasn’t. In this case, I don’t see the need for anyone to use lethal force and what the law did was make it much easier for Zimmerman to convince himself to shoot. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1282 "2012-05-16T18:34:23Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > GZ’s injuries do not rise to that standard, Although the injuries (if any) might be evidence of whether Zimmerman reasonable feared death or serious bodily harm, I doubt that it’s simply a matter of assessing his injuries and deciding whether they exceed some threshold. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1283 "2012-05-16T18:36:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If Zimmerman was a 5’1" 105 lb woman and Martin was a 6’5" 250 lb man I might agree with you. I don’t see why. If the 5’1" woman successfully drew a firearm and shot the 250 lb man who she claimed attacked her, then by your reasoning her life must not have been in any danger. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1284 "2012-05-16T18:38:02Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > If someone was on top of me beating me up, I would not be able to draw my gun so it wouldn’t make any difference what the hell I was afraid of. I think it’s far from established that Martin had Zimmerman in such a poor position. So - during a 40-second (I think) fight, Martin manages to give Zimmerman a broken nose, two black eyes, and head wounds. Martin, in return, during that fight, suffers broken skin on his knuckles. You don’t think that establishes that Martin had Zimmerman in “such a poor position”? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1285 "2012-05-16T18:40:59Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > I don’t see why. If the 5’1" woman successfully drew a firearm and shot the 250 lb man who she claimed attacked her, then by your reasoning her life must not have been in any danger. She’d better have some broken bones to back up her story. My extremely limited sympathy for the use of deadly force is in inverse proportion to the evenness of the fight. Society would be infinitely better off if nobody packed heat and these confrontations did not get deadly. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1286 "2012-05-16T18:41:41Z")
Martin had broken skin on his knuckles? Cite? I thought the funeral director said that he had no signs of any injuries to his hands. ---
**Author:** ![Zyanthia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Zyanthia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyanthia)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1287 "2012-05-16T18:43:05Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, it’s certainly fair to call him an accused murderer. But if you call him a murderer, what would you call him if the jury acquits? OJ Junior? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1288 "2012-05-16T18:43:49Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t consider myself bound to discuss things in legal definitions. In water cooler parlance, he committed murder. If I gave a rat’s ass about legal terms I would have gone to law school. Then you’re murdering the concept of accurate discussions! Also, you’re raping the concept of a society of laws, burning the fabric of precise definitions, and robbing thread participants of the chance to participate in a discussion of the very terms most necessary to discuss a pending legal case: legal terms. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1289 "2012-05-16T18:45:38Z")
I think you are raising the burden of appropriate discussion too high for an IMHO thread … IMHO of course. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1290 "2012-05-16T18:46:29Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > She’d better have some broken bones to back up her story. Again, what difference does that make? If a 250 pound man was in a position where he was breaking her bones, then by your reasoning it would be impossible for her to successfully draw her gun and open fire. Therefore, if she did manage to shoot the guy, she almost certainly did not have a valid basis to defend herself. By your reasoning, that is. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1291 "2012-05-16T18:51:17Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Again, what difference does that make? If a 250 pound man was in a position where he was breaking her bones, then by your reasoning it would be impossible for her to successfully draw her gun and open fire. Therefore, if she did manage to shoot the guy, she almost certainly did not have a valid basis to defend herself. By your reasoning, that is. Not quite. A person could receive broken bones and be in position to flee to safety. Or one could be unable to flee (cornered, for example) and able to fire a weapon. When you claim to be on the ground getting pummeled, I’m less likely to believe you could get a shot off. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1292 "2012-05-16T18:58:50Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Martin had broken skin on his knuckles? Cite? I thought the funeral director said that he had no signs of any injuries to his hands. [http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/](http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1293 "2012-05-16T19:06:18Z")
Just to recap in **BobLibDem** ’s world: 1. If you’re down on the ground and being beaten such that it justifies self defense, it would be impossible to use self defense. 2. In general a small woman better have broken bones before shooting a much larger man. 3. You can only validly use self defense if someone is trying to kill you. I think this is all based on essentially **extreme ignorance**. I think it is essentially “common sense” to imagine all kinds of different scenarios in which someone has you pinned down but you’re still able to pull a gun free. Pinned down and in threat of death is not synonymous with “pinned down and 100% unable to move your arms at all or access a gun.” The contention that you **must suffer physical injuries** before resorting to self defense shows me why I’m so extremely happy that **BobLibDem** ’s views are not at all reflected in the law. Women who have been victimized by larger men everywhere will probably agree with me in this. What’s really bad about this is it shows **BobLibDem** most likely gets his knowledge of fights from Hollywood, where you can be thrown down a flight of stairs and punched in the face forty times and then get up and run away or turn the tables and win the fight. In the real world one punch can incapacitate (and rarely can kill) and that one punch can leave you vulnerable to being strangled, beat to death and etc. That’s why **reasonable fear** of imminent harm or death is a much more reasonable standard than “must show physical wounds consistent with being murdered”, because in many cases if you have not effectively defended yourself before suffering grievous wounds then you will not be able to protect yourself at all. Finally it is ludicrous to say you should only be able to defend yourself to prevent death. If I’m too weak to stop someone from raping me, mutilating me, torturing me or etc, but I know they aren’t going to kill me, your system or law or morality or whatever you want to call it would necessitate that even if I had a gun, I must allow myself to be raped, tortured etc. in scenarios where I know the rapist or torturer has no intent to kill. That’s an affront to human dignity and common sense, and an affront to humanity itself. Humans have no moral responsibility to subject themselves to barbarism. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1294 "2012-05-16T19:38:07Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > Not quite. A person could receive broken bones and be in position to flee to safety. Or one could be unable to flee (cornered, for example) and able to fire a weapon. Ok, I understand. My response is basically the same as **Hyde** ’s in post 1293. > [@](#): > > When you claim to be on the ground getting pummeled, I’m less likely to believe you could get a shot off. “less likely to believe X” is not the same thing as “very confident that X cannot be so” For you, which is it? i.e. how certain are you that assuming Zimmerman was being beat up as he claims, he could not have successfully drawn his weapon and opened fire? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1295 "2012-05-16T21:00:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Florida caselaw lists a bloodied nose as the type of injury that qualifies as serious bodily injury, and fear of serious bodily injury is the key factor in the allowable use of deadly force. I apologize if I’m asking you to repeat yourself, but I’ve searched with no luck. Can you elaborate on the case law behind this assertion? “Reasonable fear of death or a wee boo boo”? Really? I’ve seen contradictory statements about Florida’s definition of serious bodily injury from other sources including a Florida defense attorney, to the effect that it means disfigurement, loss of limb, or organ failure. Frankly, the stand your ground legislation only begins to make sense to me with this higher standard for serious injury; I can’t credit that it is intended to justify the use of lethal force to avoid such trivial injuries. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1296 "2012-05-16T21:04:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, it does. > > AT least in the sense that Florida caselaw lists a bloodied nose as the type of injury that qualifies as serious bodily injury, and fear of serious bodily injury is the key factor in the allowable use of deadly force. > > I imagine the defense will say that a broken nose that’s stopped bleeding is an injury that doesn’t require lifesaving treatment. > > Ah ha! > > By that I mean: ah ha! This is what you might want to call the key question, at least in my view of the evidence. The bloody nose isn’t the problem. Apparently, George Zimmerman received blunt force trauma to the back of his skull. If continued, blood vessels on the brain’s surface can rupture, filling the brain cavity, causing the enclosed brain to press against the brain stem, stop breathing, and terminate his life. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1297 "2012-05-16T22:26:43Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I apologize if I’m asking you to repeat yourself, but I’ve searched with no luck. Can you elaborate on the case law behind this assertion? > > “Reasonable fear of death or a wee boo boo”? Really? > > I’ve seen contradictory statements about Florida’s definition of serious bodily injury from other sources including a Florida defense attorney, to the effect that it means disfigurement, loss of limb, or organ failure. > > Frankly, the stand your ground legislation only begins to make sense to me with this higher standard for serious injury; I can’t credit that it is intended to justify the use of lethal force to avoid such trivial injuries. From an earlier thread: > [@Question about the Trayvon Martin Case?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/question-about-the-trayvon-martin-case/618504/53): > > The Florida Court of Appeals in _Owens v. State_, 289 So. 2d 472 (1974), quoted with approval _Anderson v. State_, 291 N.E.2d 579 (1973), wherein “great bodily harm” was found in a case in which the victim was struck five blows with a fist. > > FSA § 776.012 says that a person may use deadly force if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent great bodily harm. The Owens Court also quoted another decision with approval, concerning how serious injuries have to be to qualify: > [@](#): > > “The statutory term `great bodily harm’ is not susceptible to precise legal definition. \* \* \* Defendant asserts that great bodily harm is synonymous with permanent injury. True, it can be argued that all permanent injury constitutes great bodily harm. It does not follow, however, that all great bodily harm consists of permanent injury. Indeed, many serious bodily injuries leave no lasting effect on the health, strength, and comfort of the injured person.” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1298 "2012-05-16T22:28:29Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, it’s certainly fair to call him an accused murderer. But if you call him a murderer, what would you call him if the jury acquits? I knew someone who called OJ an acquitted murderer ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1299 "2012-05-16T22:31:22Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Opinions are welcome and encouraged in a forum called IMHO. I can see why you might think that. But it doesn’t jibe with my experience. ymmv. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1300 "2012-05-16T22:33:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thus, the version of events that says it was Martin beating Zimmerman up seems to be holding up. Yeah, but WHICH “version of events that says it was Martin beating Zimmerman up?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=66)