# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 66
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1301 "2012-05-16T23:45:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > From an earlier thread: > > The Owens Court also quoted another decision with approval, concerning how serious injuries have to be to qualify: I am trying to get to the bit where a bloody nose qualifies as great bodily harm, and not finding it. You quoted “struck five blows with a fist” as though this was a trivial assault, however, from [Anderson v. State itself](http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=1973870291NE2d579_1848.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7): > [@](#): > > One of Cundiff’s physicians answered the Prosecutor’s questions thusly: > > “Q. Would you describe what you had to do to repair this injury to Mr. Cundiff? > A. Well, this injury was extensive and Mr. Cunidff has to be put to sleep, to repair this injury. I opened him up on the cheek bone, right below the eye, and on the side of the head, in order to insert an instrument to pry the bone upward so that to be in alignment with the other broken fragment and to stabilize this I had to take hold of both bones and wire it together. > Q. You did cut into him and then you had to stitch that up too, is that correct? > A. Yes. He has to be stitched in the area where I went through on the cheek and on the side of the head. > Q. Was that the extent of your treatment to Mr. Cundiff? > A. Yes sir.” > > Cundiff was hospitalized four days. This seems a rather stark contrast with Zimmerman’s injuries. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1302 "2012-05-17T00:56:52Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > The bloody nose isn’t the problem. Apparently, George Zimmerman received blunt force trauma to the back of his skull. If continued, blood vessels on the brain’s surface can rupture, filling the brain cavity, causing the enclosed brain to press against the brain stem, stop breathing, and terminate his life. From the leaked report: > [@](#): > > But he was not diagnosed with a concussion. [Link.](http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-medical-report-sheds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7Qv_tk0Eg8) > [@](#): > > But the report also shows Zimmerman declined hospitalization the night of the shooting, and then declined the advice of his doctor to make a follow-up appointment with an ear nose and throat doctor. The article doesn’t say if any scans or x-rays were taken during this lone visit to a family practice GP. I’d like to see the EMT report. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1303 "2012-05-17T01:43:59Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > George Zimmerman received blunt force trauma to the back of his skull. If continued, blood vessels on the brain’s surface can rupture, filling the brain cavity, causing the enclosed brain to press against the brain stem, stop breathing, and terminate his life. Yeah, I don’t see anything that’s been reported about his GP’s report that indicates blunt force trauma - where are you getting that? The only mention of injury to the back of his head was of two lacerations, one about a quarter of an inch, and the other one nearly an inch. If you are making an inference of blunt force trauma from these, it’s a bad inference. This sort of injury might have come from a stone or other object on the ground beneath his head during the struggle. By ABC’s account, the report ruled out concussion, and did not mention any other symptoms associated with blunt trauma to the head - not even bruising. Going from a couple of lacerations to your “if continued…” is a bit like that time I lectured my neighbour about leaving his sprinkler on overnight by invoking the spectre of differential erosion. A Grand Canyon type feature would really spoil the charm of the region. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1304 "2012-05-17T02:05:26Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > I am trying to get to the bit where a bloody nose qualifies as great bodily harm, and not finding it. You quoted “struck five blows with a fist” as though this was a trivial assault, however, from [Anderson v. State itself](http://www.leagle.com/xmlResult.aspx?page=2&xmldoc=1973870291NE2d579_1848.xml&docbase=CSLWAR1-1950-1985&SizeDisp=7):This seems a rather stark contrast with Zimmerman’s injuries. You seem to be under the impression that Zimmerman must show he suffered great bodily harm to have a valid defense. That is not the case–he needs only to show he was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1305 "2012-05-17T02:48:57Z")
[http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows) Intermediate range is 8" to 3.4’. Cite: [Gunshot Wounds | Gunshot Wounds Photographs](http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1306 "2012-05-17T03:03:18Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > You seem to be under the impression that Zimmerman must show he suffered great bodily harm to have a valid defense. That is not the case–he needs only to show he was reasonably in fear of great bodily harm. I harbour no such illusions. But “reasonably” is key, isn’t it? It’s established that “great bodily harm” is contrasted with moderate harm in that it it’s more than you would expect from a simple assault and battery. You might have a reasonable fear of great bodily harm if you were being menaced with a tire iron, or if you were cornered by a psychotic behemoth. Zimmerman needs to show that he had a _reasonable_ fear of great bodily harm from a bare-handed teenager 25% smaller than him. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1307 "2012-05-17T03:07:04Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Zimmerman needs to show that he had a _reasonable_ fear of great bodily harm from a bare-handed teenager 25% smaller than him. > **[Race, Tragedy and Outrage Collide After a Shot in Florida (Published 2012)](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all)** > > The fatal encounter between Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman has polarized the nation, shining an unforgiving light on issues such as race relations and gun control. “However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5 foot 9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6 foot 1 and 150, wrestling on the ground.” Please tell me how you came up with “25% smaller than him”. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1308 "2012-05-17T03:08:46Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > [http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/\_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/16/11736208-trayvon-martin-killed-by-single-gunshot-fired-from-intermediate-range-autopsy-shows) > > Intermediate range is 8" to 3.4’. > > Cite: [Gunshot Wounds | Gunshot Wounds Photographs](http://www.relentlessdefense.com/forensics/gunshot-wounds/) From your news cite: > [@](#): > > The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injury – a small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch in size – on his left ring finger below the knuckle. > > Separately, a medical report on Martin’s alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martin’s shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp. That report, first reported Tuesday by ABC News, also was reviewed by NBC News. A quarter inch abrasion on one finger is consistent with “damaged knuckles” from administering a “fear of death” beat down? Also, what’s with the “likely” broken nose for Zimmerman? Was it broken or not? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1309 "2012-05-17T03:14:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Please tell me how you came up with “25% smaller than him”. Zimmerman is acknowledged to be 200lbs. Reports of Martin’s weight vary between 140 and 160lbs. I split the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1310 "2012-05-17T03:16:05Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Zimmerman is acknowledged to be 200lbs. Reports of Martin’s weight vary between 140 and 160lbs. I split the difference. “Acknowledged” by whom? NYTimes says it’s 170lb. You have seen Zimmerman during hearings - at 5’9" he certainly looks much more like 170 than 200. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1311 "2012-05-17T03:20:54Z")
Last place I’ve seen that was [here](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/05/trayvon-martin-autopsy-george-zimmerman-medical-report-fight.html?mid=rss). And the NYT says that a witness who saw him in the dark estimated his weight at 170lbs. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1312 "2012-05-17T03:27:06Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Last place I’ve seen that was [here](http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/05/trayvon-martin-autopsy-george-zimmerman-medical-report-fight.html?mid=rss). And the NYT says that a witness who saw him in the dark estimated his weight at 170lbs. The place you have seen it in cites its data from March 30th. Before you could see Zimmerman on video during hearings. No way he is 200lb. And no, the NYT does not “say that a witness who saw him in the dark estimated his weight at 170lbs”. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1313 "2012-05-17T03:34:39Z")
I don’t know why but it really annoyed me when I just read several news articles that said the autopsy revealed Martin was shot at “intermediate range.” None of the articles I read went on to define what exactly intermediate range is. Given the inflamed passions of this case I don’t understand why the media is so quick to just randomly say shit without even bothering to clarify it whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1314 "2012-05-17T03:35:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I don’t know why but it really annoyed me when I just read several news articles that said the autopsy revealed Martin was shot at “intermediate range.” None of the articles I read went on to define what exactly intermediate range is. Given the inflamed passions of this case I don’t understand why the media is so quick to just randomly say shit without even bothering to clarify it whatsoever. **enomaj** above gave a cite that says that intermediate range is 8" to 3.4’. ---
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1315 "2012-05-17T03:49:41Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No, but a bloody nose is serious bodily injury, and fear of serious bodily injury justifies use of deadly force. This is not murder. > > If the jury believes that Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose in a physical fight that Martin initiated, the prosecution cannot win. Given how far away Zimmerman was from his truck, and from any street signs it’s going to be an uphill task trying to show / prove that Martin initiated the fight. It’s a pretty reasonable response to confront someone that is following you in a dark alley. And unless there is something to show that Martin just jumped Zimmerman without warning, this is the most that can be shown (at least from what I can see of the evidence right now). And from reading the links provided, it seems that Martin only had a small cut on his left hand. I’d be rather curious (and somewhat surprised) if this was the only “hand injury” that could be expected from numerous / multiple blows. I’d also be curious about whether Martin is left or right handed. As far as the black eyes go - how long would it take for black eyes to show up? Wouldn’t they be somewhat visible within the 5 hours or more that he spent at the police station? If the “black eyes” only showed up the next day at the doctors I’d be somewhat suspicious. (note: I don’t have much experience with black eyes - so stand to be corrected here) ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1316 "2012-05-17T04:16:01Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Given how far away Zimmerman was from his truck, and from any street signs it’s going to be an uphill task trying to show / prove that Martin initiated the fight. Defense will show Martin had ample time to go home and avoid a confrontation. > [@bengangmo](#): > > It’s a pretty reasonable response to confront someone that is following you in a dark alley. No, it’s not a reasonable response to confront someone following you in a dark alley. It’s the exact opposite as well as confrontational. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1317 "2012-05-17T04:23:19Z")
The evidence is mounting that this is exactly what it appears to be. A clear case of self defense. Everything is showing that Z was on the ground getting the crap beat of him. Broken nose, black eyes, and the back of head bloody from getting slammed into the sidewalk. Martin’s knuckles were bruised from beating Z up. I can easily believe the story that Martin saw the gun in Z’s waistband. They struggled for possession of the gun and it went off. Have they confirmed yet that Martin did have powder burns? Indicating the gun was very, very close? This isn’t even a stand your ground defense. Z didn’t have any opportunity to run from Martin. The guy was right on top of him grabbing for Z’s gun. I don’t know how much simpler a case this could be for Self Defense. Any reasonable person would fear for their life in this situation. It’s a shame Z will lose a year of his life waiting for trial and think of all the money that will be spent on such an open and shut case. The Martin family will still be just as outraged after the acquittal and all of this will be for nothing. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1318 "2012-05-17T05:02:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > **enomaj** above gave a cite that says that intermediate range is 8" to 3.4’. I couldn’t find that part ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1319 "2012-05-17T05:04:03Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Martin’s knuckles were bruised from beating Z up. I would like to be able to repeat this claim. Can you show me where you got this info? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2012, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1320 "2012-05-17T05:12:51Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Given how far away Zimmerman was from his truck, and from any street signs it’s going to be an uphill task trying to show / prove that Martin initiated the fight. It’s a pretty reasonable response to confront someone that is following you in a dark alley. Dark alley? Where are you getting this “dark alley” from? And if one guy has all sorts of lacerations and they other guy has none, who do you think the jury is going to think initiated the fight? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=65) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=67)