# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1401 "2012-05-18T00:58:28Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > BFD. So he had grass in his blood. The problem was that his blood was all over the grass. An unarmed minor was murdered by some halfwit who thinks he’s Dirty Harry. And now all you right wingers are delirious because you think and hope and pray that he lives to kill again. Hey, it’s your side wildly distorting facts and doing everything to maintain your “sweet angel killed by racist thug” storyline so you can cluck your tongue and feel superior. Unfortunately for your side, every fact that comes out is destroying your argument. It appears Martin was on drugs, he clocked Zimmerman, and then smashed his head into the ground. All that Zimmerman appears to be guilty of is going to see where a suspicious person went and not consenting to get his ass kicked. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1402 "2012-05-18T00:59:43Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > But I thought I’d note it is pretty incredible how partisan and extreme someone can be. I’m just glad I don’t live in your black and white world. Now this just makes me laugh. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1403 "2012-05-18T01:40:30Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > Ok, and who are these “supporters” who seem “amazed” that Zimmerman can document his injuries? To answer my own question, I am skeptical that any such people exist on this message board. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1404 "2012-05-18T01:55:55Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Hey, it’s your side wildly distorting facts and doing everything to maintain your “sweet angel killed by racist thug” storyline so you can cluck your tongue and feel superior. Unfortunately for your side, every fact that comes out is destroying your argument. I’m not sure I would dignify **BobLibDem** ’s position by referring to it as an “argument.” Probably better to characterize it as raging against a reality which won’t conform to his Narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1405 "2012-05-18T02:00:53Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And so what? Consider the possibility that the prosecution’s case has little to do with Zimmerman’s broken nose. Even though the defense probably wants to make it all about his precious nose, this doesn’t mean his precious nose is the crux of the issue. In the original thread, you said: > [@](#): > > I am willing to bet that the EMT records note no open wounds on Zimmermans noggin. There may have been blood on it (perhaps Martin’s, perhaps his own from his nose), but I don’t believe he had any tell tale gashes or abrasions on it. These kinds of wounds bleed notoriously and not even a rookie paramedic would neglect to apply a dressing to such an injury. With the dearth of wounds on the surveillance video and it’s like adding one plus one. How do you feel about that prediction now? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1406 "2012-05-18T02:00:55Z")
So, **Bricker** , assuming there is no glaring contradictions in Zimmerman’s testimony, just on the evidence that was presented, can Corey be accused of prosecutorial misconduct in charging Zimmerman with murder 2? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1407 "2012-05-18T02:10:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > So, **Bricker** , assuming there is no glaring contradictions in Zimmerman’s testimony, just on the evidence that was presented, can Corey be accused of prosecutorial misconduct in charging Zimmerman with murder 2? Your hypothetical is poorly framed. If nothing at all additional emerged? Yes, I think so. But that’s highly unlikely. What’s more likely by far is that some additional evidence does exist. And how “glaring” it is won’t be a yes-or-no issue, but one of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1408 "2012-05-18T02:26:06Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Your hypothetical is poorly framed. > > If nothing at all additional emerged? Yes, I think so. > > But that’s highly unlikely. What’s more likely by far is that some additional evidence does exist. And how “glaring” it is won’t be a yes-or-no issue, but one of degree. The only additional evidence that can exist, at this point, is Zimmerman’s interrogation/interview records. The other stuff has to have been released in discovery, no? ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1409 "2012-05-18T02:43:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Seriously, do you even have a shred of objectivity left? Stop desperately searching for any explanation to support your side of the argument. It makes you look pathetic. > > Anyways, if you read CNN you will see that it says: > > Another cite says: > > [Cannabis and sport - PMC](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657492/) > > I’ve done some brief googling, and unless Martin was a heavy user, it’s likely he smoked that night. THC plasma concentrations of 1.5 ng/mL is not a psychotropic dose. **Not even close**. In fact, 1.5 ng/mL concentration isn’t high enough to be considered for a DUI. Plasma concentrations spike to about 150 ng after finishing a joint. By the way, THC decreases aggressiveness and increases social inhibitions. Given the higher concentrations 7 ng/mL of the THC metabolite (which is psychotropically inactive), I’d suspect that Trayvon Martin was probably a chronic pot smoker, however, 1.5 ng/mL of THC (active) in plasma indicates that he was not high when he was carrying skittles and iced tea back from the store. I’d go on to wager that he hadn’t smoked pot within the last 6 - 12 h. I’m willing to concede that Trayvon Martin was doped up on illicit hippie drugs but riddle me this. How it that Mr. Zimmerman left a bloodless corpse in pristine condition? That’s the part that confuses me. If he was being pummeled by a teenager, one would think that he would have landed a blow or something. Moreover, there’s no indication that Trayvon Martin received any martial arts training. Why wouldn’t a neighborhood watchman be familiar with basic physical defense maneuvers in order to protect himself (especially from a teenager who just turned 17 three weeks before). - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1410 "2012-05-18T02:46:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In the original thread, you said: > > How do you feel about that prediction now? Uh, I have long since changed my position on this. Remember when I said the nail in the coffin is probably simpler than his injuries or lack thereof? I got that distinct impression at the bond hearing. The defense is playing up Zimmerman’s injuries because that’s their strongesrt card. But nothing has really changed. The only new info is that Trayvon had an abrasion on his left finger and he had THC in his system, and neither one of these are earthshattering or exonerating. I still think it hurts Zimmerman’s case that Martin _didn’t_ have any other injuries. Namely because it suggests he used his weapon as a first resort. That said, i dont think The prosecution will have to work very hard to challenge the extent of Zimmerman’s injuries, or throw his statement into question based on how his wounds match up with his claims. Oh wait. One other new thing has come out. The autopsy results: The kid was shot in the heart. Seems to me this would make it highly unlikely Martin was capable of moving after he was shot. But most of his body was located in the grass, away from the sidewalk. This is inconsistent with Zimmerman’s claim of having his head beaten against the sidewalk immediately before firing his weapon. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1411 "2012-05-18T02:59:30Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The defense is playing up Zimmerman’s injuries because that’s their strongesrt card. But nothing has really changed. The only new info is that Trayvon had an abrasion on his left finger and he had THC in his system, and neither one of these are earthshattering or exonerating. I still think it hurts Zimmerman’s case that Martin _didn’t_ have any other injuries. Namely because it suggests he used his weapon as a first resort. No it doesn’t. The injuries suggest Martin landed a clean left to Zimmerman’s nose and gained a dominant position. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1412 "2012-05-18T03:05:33Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > How it that Mr. Zimmerman left a bloodless corpse in pristine condition? That’s the part that confuses me. If he was being pummeled by a teenager, one would think that he would have landed a blow or something. Moreover, there’s no indication that Trayvon Martin received any martial arts training. Why wouldn’t a neighborhood watchman be familiar with basic physical defense maneuvers in order to protect himself (especially from a teenager who just turned 17 three weeks before). > > - Honesty The lack of any injury to Martin aside from a single hand wound is definitely surprising. But I’m not sure what conclusions we can draw from it. Given we have a police officer who took a picture of Zimmerman’s bloody nose at the scene, and said it looked broken, and given the further pictures of Zimmerman’s bloody head that had a few scrape/abrasions on it, and then the doctor’s exam of Zimmerman conducted the next day I’m not sure what series of facts we can possibly come up with other than “Trayvon Martin put those injuries on Zimmerman.” It isn’t conclusive in determining if **at the moment Zimmerman fired** that he was acting in self defense. Zimmerman could have gotten his ass kicked and then ran up on Trayvon (close enough for an “intermediate range” gun shot…with one state examiner saying it looked like the gun was nearly touching Trayvon’s clothing, which may have been hanging loosely 1-2 inches from his skin based on positioning) and shot him in revenge for getting his ass kicked. But, if that’s what happened the state needs compelling evidence to prove it. They can’t just say “well all this is confusing, I think Zimmerman ran up and murdered Martin in cold blood after the fight was over.” Even inconsistencies in Zimmerman’s testimony is unlikely to be able to convince a jury beyond a reasonable doubt of such a scenario. The only thing, given what I know about the case, that could possibly result in a jury unanimously buying such a story would be if Zimmerman has talked about his crime to someone after the fact and that person has come forward to the prosecution. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1413 "2012-05-18T03:06:59Z")
I don’t understand how someone can do all the things Martin is alleged to have done without incurring more significant injuries on his hands. Martin allegedly punched Zimmerman hard enough to knock him on his butt, break a nose, and blacken two eyes, and then went on to do some more damage. I’ve never landed a punch before, but it was my understanding that those suckers hurt. How did he slam Zimmerman’s head into the concrete? I still can’t picture how the kid could have gotten good enough purchase on Zimmerman’s head to be able to slam it down while also also pinning the guys arms down. And if Zimmerman’s hands weren’t restrained, just what the hell were they doing for Martin not to have any signs of a struggle on him? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1414 "2012-05-18T03:07:02Z")
> [@treis](#): > > No it doesn’t. The injuries suggest Martin landed a clean left to Zimmerman’s nose and gained a dominant position. But his hands were free enough to grab his gun out his waistband while supposedly supporting a teenager on his chest. Which means he went for his gun before even so much as clawing the kids hands and arms with his nails. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1415 "2012-05-18T03:10:52Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But his hands were free enough to grab his gun out his waistband while supposedly supporting a teenager on his chest. Which means he went for his gun before even so much as clawing the kids hands and arms with his nails. If that’s what happened, that is irrelevant, he isn’t required to follow an escalation of force doctrine in such a situation. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1416 "2012-05-18T03:16:26Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t understand how someone can do all the things Martin is alleged to have done without incurring more significant injuries on his hands. Martin allegedly punched Zimmerman hard enough to knock him on his butt, break a nose, and blacken two eyes, and then went on to do some more damage. I’ve never landed a punch before, but it was my understanding that those suckers hurt. > > How did he slam Zimmerman’s head into the concrete? I still can’t picture how the kid could have gotten good enough purchase on Zimmerman’s head to be able to slam it down while also also pinning the guys arms down. And if Zimmerman’s hands weren’t restrained, just what the hell were they doing for Martin not to have any signs of a struggle on him? I’ve never come out of a fight without my knuckles showing it clearly. But again, in this scenario I’m not sure what explanation can possibly be true other than “Martin punched Zimmerman enough that he broke his nose, and then did something to him causing the back of his head to get fucked up.” If he only punched Zimmerman once, that could explain perhaps why his knuckles were not seriously damaged. If he then started slamming Zimmerman’s head on the ground by grabbing it and slamming it down repeatedly that would explain why no further knuckle wounds. It’s hard to understand why GZ wouldn’t have been trying to wrestle Martin off of him or punch him during all this. But, one thing that is true about real fights versus TV fights is they happen about 300x faster, so if Zimmerman got caught real good on the nose he may have been dazed and Martin may have been on him before he could do anything, and then bounced his head a few times off the ground before Zimmerman really could react. At that point Zimmerman could have been in that place you get when your adrenaline takes over in a combination of fear and primal instinct and lead to him immediately using lethal force. But yeah, we can speculate all kinds of different shit about that, but I can’t realistically see any other explanation other than “Martin kicked Zimmerman’s ass, up to that point.” I can’t say how many times he punched him, or if he was bouncing his head off the pavement or instead maybe his head just got the abrasions from the force of the punches driving his head into the ground, who knows. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1417 "2012-05-18T03:20:19Z")
I’m still trying to figure out how he could have shot Martin in the chest if Martin was sitting on _his_ chest. And how was Martin grabbing for his gun while in this position, if the gun was in Zimmermans waistband? And at the same time suffocating and/or pounding his head into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1418 "2012-05-18T03:21:19Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > If that’s what happened, that is irrelevant, he isn’t required to follow an escalation of force doctrine in such a situation. It is if he’s the initial aggressor. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1419 "2012-05-18T03:27:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It is if he’s the initial aggressor. Not in “such a situation” in which he is pinned down. If he’s the initial aggressor he has a duty to retreat, but if he’s pinned down retreat is an impossibility. > [@](#): > > (2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless: > (a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or > > (b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force. I think if he was knocked down and the fight was ongoing with Martin beating him up while he lay prone, he could satisfy these two requirements. It could be argued further, but I think he could satisfy them enough to avoid conviction, in such a scenario. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1420 "2012-05-18T03:27:31Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I don’t understand how someone can do all the things Martin is alleged to have done without incurring more significant injuries on his hands. Martin allegedly punched Zimmerman hard enough to knock him on his butt, break a nose, and blacken two eyes, and then went on to do some more damage. I’ve never landed a punch before, but it was my understanding that those suckers hurt. > > How did he slam Zimmerman’s head into the concrete? I still can’t picture how the kid could have gotten good enough purchase on Zimmerman’s head to be able to slam it down while also also pinning the guys arms down. And if Zimmerman’s hands weren’t restrained, just what the hell were they doing for Martin not to have any signs of a struggle on him? If you get punched in the face hard enough to break your nose, the normal person (i.e. not a boxer or martial artist) is going to be dazed for several seconds, enough time to knock the person to the ground. I’ve been in fights pretty much like that: one cold-cock to the face when you’re not expecting it, and the next thing you know you’re on the ground wrestling. Unless you’re dealing with professionals, very, very few fights feature two guys landing multiple blows to each other’s face. That’s Hollywood. And yeah, your hands can hurt like hell after the adreniline wears off. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=72)