# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1522 "2012-05-18T20:41:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > He doesn’t really have to expand on it at all in the general trial, and unless he takes the stand he’ll never be directly questioned on it again. I’m not sure how Corey can really use it to her advantage in the trial itself. I’m not asking how this statement will be used in court, blah blah blah. I’m asking people to offer a good explanation for why Zimmerman said what he did, if indeed he shot Martin in self-defense. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1523 "2012-05-18T20:47:23Z")
Because people had been harping on the fact that Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman wanted to explain that he didn’t know that Martin was unarmed. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1524 "2012-05-18T20:51:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because people had been harping on the fact that Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman wanted to explain that he didn’t know that Martin was unarmed. See, that’s a problem for him. Did he assume TM was armed, and was surprised to learn he was not? If he thought he might be armed, why the hell would he start following him? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1525 "2012-05-18T21:08:02Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Still waiting for someone to explain Zimmerman’s comment at the bond hearing about not knowing Martin was unarmed. Wait no longer. I’ve read that GZ saw a TV interview with TM’s mother in which she specifically said she’d like to see GZ answer three questions. GZ took that at face value and tried to answer them to her directly, and on being rebuffed, at the hearing. The questions were whether he knew that he was unarmed, the fact that he was only 17, and one other thing that I forgot. I can’t swear to this, but I read it in some reputable media source, IIRC. I could posssibly hunt around for it, but perhaps someone else remembers a source. > [@Shodan](#): > > Maybe the prosecution is focussing on what Zimmerman claims Martin said, either before or after he was shot. “You got me” sounds rather melodramatic in a sort of Wild West way. Maybe Zimmerman made that up, whether or not he believes now that he heard it. And perhaps Zimmerman imagined or misconstrued whatever Martin said to him earlier, to sound more “gangsta” than it was. I think people are making too much of these things. It’s not impossible that GZ’s claims about the dialogue are incorrect. Amadou Daillo claimed that the police officers who sodomized him said “it’s Giuliani time”, and that turned out to have been lifted from a movie. But Diallo’s basic story was true enough for the jury. But besides for that, I think people are overconfident about what other people would or wouldn’t say, espcially in unusual situations. I think that the same reasons that might make GZ make up TM saying these things are the same reasons that TM might actually say them, corny as you might think they are. Everyone is being influenced by the same culture. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1526 "2012-05-18T21:08:27Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because people had been harping on the fact that Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman wanted to explain that he didn’t know that Martin was unarmed. That still doesn’t make sense. If a thug beat you up so bad that you had to shoot him to save your life, him being unarmed would be irrelevant. His fists are weapon enough. Your justification for shooting would have all to do with his fists. And so your _assumption_ about him being armed would be irrelevant as well. “I’m sorry. I didn’t know he was unarmed.” This statement clearly implies that his actions would have been different if he’d known the kid was unarmed. The question is, which action could he have been referring to? Calling 911 on him? Not likely. Even though he throws hints that Martin is carrying on that call, more vague stuff about him looking weird and up to no good were mentioned first. Chasing after him? Okay, well then if that’s the case, this suggests Zimmerman went looking for trouble then. Because chasing after a person that you believe is armed is not the behavior of a man that is afraid or conflict-averse. Nor is it the behavior of someone who is thinking rationally. Anyone who is escalating conflict with an armed person is looking a fight Shooting him dead? This is the simplest explanation. Zimmerman was apologizing for shooting Martin when he made the comment about not knowing he was unarmed, which strongly suggests that he would’ve not pulled the trigger if he’d known upfront he wasn’t dealing with a true threat. Perhaps it means he would’ve tried to defend himself using his hands instead of his gun. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1527 "2012-05-18T21:10:27Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Zimmerman strikes me as exactly the kind of person who would text something stupidly incriminating and think he could get away with it as long as the messages were deleted from the phones. > > Another WTF that **monstro** overlooked, that also incriminates Zimmerman is his comment at the bond hearing when he apologized by saying he didn’t know Martin had been unarmed. There is no reason this should have been on the forefront of his mind if the fight had occurred the way he said did. It suggests that Zimmerman shot Martin because he assumed Martin would shoot him. Not because of anything Martin actually did. > > If Martin put him in fear for his life just by his fists alone, then why would it matter whether he was armed or not? > > Even if we consider that maybe he meant that he thought Martin was suspicious in the first place because he assumed the kid was armed, then…WTF? According to this logic, it was Martin who was justified in believing that Zimmerman was up to no good. Why? Because Zimmerman was armed. Martin wasn’t. So if this what Zimmerman meant, he basically admitting that he targeted Martin for an “offense” that he himself was guilty of. > > **Anyone else have an idea of what could have possibly driven Zimmerman to say what he did at the bond hearing?** (In the spirit of the forum and thread title, complete and utter WAG speculation to follow: ) If GZ and his council were aware of some evidence/statements/texts/testimony that indicate that GZ pulled out his gun BEFORE any physical altercation, he may have made that statement in an attempt to set up a narrative where he asserts that he had a reason to believe that TM was armed and/or reaching for a gun. If it can be shown that GZ had drawn his weapon without sufficient provocation, it makes it much easier to portray him as the aggressor, and TM as acting in self-defense. He may have pulled his gun before any physical altercation, then (quite stupidly) attempted to restrain TM from leaving with his other hand, and then a struggle (for the gun?) ensued. -OR- Take for instance, a scenario where GZ, in an attempt to detain TM, grabs him and tries to forcibly keep him there (this time, without pulling his gun) to await the arrival of the police. TM, having done nothing wrong, would be in his right at that point to fight off any such physical restraint. After a few punches are thrown by TM, they likely would have ended up rolling around on the ground, with GZ alternating between trying to restrain him from leaving, and trying to shield himself from TM’s efforts to forcibly make GZ let go of him. Even being “pinned” on the bottom of such a grappling altercation does NOT necessarily mean that GZ wasn’t still holding on to TM and not allowing him to leave. In fact, apart from his possible desire to restrain him there until the police arrived, the best method of defense when you’re on the ground with someone on top of you, is to hold on to them as tightly as you can. At this point, the most obvious and effective move for the (untrained in MMA) person on top would be to slam their body up and down, causing the person on the bottom who is holding on to them to be slammed into the ground. So, at some point in this totally hypothetical scenario, GZ realizes that he’s on the losing end of this altercation that he started, and could have genuinely begun to fear for his life. In his mind, he was still the good guy doing his perceived civic duty to stop a criminal, and even though he’s on the bottom and losing badly, he may still have been holding on to TM, fearing that the beating would only get worse if he let him get up, or hoping that he could hold on long enough for the police to arrive. Either way, at some point he begins to fear for his life, and he manages to draw his weapon, and somewhat understandably from his current state of mind, decides to shoot the “criminal” that has got the best of him, in an effort to “defend” himself. Yeah, that’s a whole lot of assumptions, but I think the above scenario does a pretty decent job of addressing the possible actions, motivations, and states of mind of both of the parties in the hypothetical. If something like that did happen, and there were some sort of evidence to support it, GZ would be in need of some greater justification to use deadly force, since he would have been the one in the wrong. In any scenario, laying the ground for him believing that TM was armed would help him provide some greater measure of justification for his actions. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1528 "2012-05-18T21:17:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > One further note: on the Today show this morning, someone – Crump, O’Mara, or Matt Lauer – said that the prosecution planned to introduce text messages sent by Zimmerman in the days _following_ the shooting. I have to say A HA to that revelation – if Zimmerman’s post-event admissions are inculpatory, that could be a huge plus for the prosecution. > > And, as an aside, it would clear up the persistent discrepancy – why didn’t the police charge him that night, but the speciual prosecutor did weeks later? Potential answer: because she had a ton of text messages from Zimmerman crowing about how he beat the rap, and see how quickly he can make up a believable story when he needed to? The text messages were brought up briefly at the bond hearing (O’Mara shut it down): > [@](#): > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok. Now, sir, you had a phone at some point and you agreed to turn over that phone to the police so they could make a copy of what was in there, right? > > ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And in that phone did you receive or send text messages sir. > > ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to a reverend? > > O’MARA: Objection, your honor. Outside the scope. > > JUDGE LESTER: Sustained. > > UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever make any reference to Mr. Martin, the father of the victim? > > JUDGE LESTER: Sustained. You’re getting a little bit far away. [Link.](http://emptysuit.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-transcript/) From this exchange it appears he made remarks about a Reverend (Sharpton?) and Tracy Martin, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he also gloated about “beating the rap” or something similar, since he did the same thing on an old MySpace page after that assault incident in 2005. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1529 "2012-05-18T21:17:55Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > See, that’s a problem for him. Did he assume TM was armed, and was surprised to learn he was not? If he thought he might be armed, why the hell would he start following him? Yes exactly. And since when is it the default assumption that everyone is armed until proven otherwise? This little statement says a lot of about how Zimmerman sees the world. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1530 "2012-05-18T21:24:08Z")
> [@camille](#): > > The text messages were brought up briefly at the bond hearing (O’Mara shut it down): > > [Link.](http://emptysuit.wordpress.com/2012/04/21/george-zimmerman-bond-hearing-transcript/) > > From this exchange it appears he made remarks about a Reverend (Sharpton?) and Tracy Martin, but it wouldn’t surprise me if he also gloated about “beating the rap” or something similar, since he did the same thing on an old MySpace page after that assault incident in 2005. Interesting. It certainly sounds like the text messages will be brought up in trial. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1531 "2012-05-18T21:24:43Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > If I’m sitting in my car and I see someone in my neighborhood who I think is a criminal and I call the police, the last friggin thing I’m going to do is get out of my car so I can keep him within eye-sight. I guess unless I had a brand new shiny gun that I could hide behind if shit went bad … so there that, I suppose. Florida seems to be right behind that “logic.” I’ve called the police many times over 20 some years and have kept visual contact on the person in question. Martin used the sidewalk which would have taken him through the back of the houses and out of sight of Zimmerman. For Zimmerman keep him in sight he needed to get out of his vehicle. The whole point of a neighborhood watch is just that. If the timeline is correct then Martin doubled back with the intent to confront Zimmerman. From his girlfriend’s recount it was Martin who initiated contact. Combine that with visual confirmation that he was indeed on top of Zimmerman beating the crap out of him it would appear that Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman and the result was a violent assault. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1532 "2012-05-18T21:28:06Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > IIf the timeline is correct then Martin doubled back with the intent to confront Zimmerman. From his girlfriend’s recount it was Martin who initiated contact. Combine that with visual confirmation that he was indeed on top of Zimmerman beating the crap out of him it would appear that Martin went out of his way to confront Zimmerman and the result was a violent assault. I guess since we are in IMHO, you are free to express any unfounded opinion you want. None of that is supported by the facts we know, however. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1533 "2012-05-18T21:30:56Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > 1. Conclude that only the mentally deficient believe that THC levels had anyt bearing on what happened that night. 1. Martin is still using illegal drugs despite being suspended from school for using illegal drugs. I would conclude that he exhibits poor judgement. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1534 "2012-05-18T21:35:09Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > See, that’s a problem for him. Did he assume TM was armed, and was surprised to learn he was not? As far as I know, Zimmerman has not stated that he assumed either way. > [@](#): > > If he thought he might be armed, why the hell would he start following him? Because he was the neighborhood watch guy. But I don’t think Zimmerman assumed either that Martin was armed, or that he wasn’t. His remark in the apology came later, after there was talk about how Martin was unarmed. [QUOTE=you with the face] Shooting him dead? This is the simplest explanation. Zimmerman was apologizing for shooting Martin when he made the comment about not knowing he was unarmed, which strongly suggests that he would’ve not pulled the trigger if he’d known upfront he wasn’t dealing with a true threat. [/QUOTE] I guess I agree with your point, but I don’t see the relevance. Zimmerman didn’t shoot him because he thought Martin was armed; he shot him (he says) because Martin was bashing his head on the ground. The reason he mentioned that he didn’t know Martin was unarmed was because people were saying how much worse the shooting was because Martin was unarmed. “You shot him, even though he wasn’t armed!” Zimmerman could have responded, not just “I didn’t know he wasn’t armed” but “I didn’t shoot him because I thought he was armed - I shot him because he was trying to bash my head in” but that’s not the sort of thing you say when you are trying to apologize to the mother of the person you shot. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Wait no longer. > > I’ve read that GZ saw a TV interview with TM’s mother in which she specifically said she’d like to see GZ answer three questions. GZ took that at face value and tried to answer them to her directly, and on being rebuffed, at the hearing. The questions were whether he knew that he was unarmed, the fact that he was only 17, and one other thing that I forgot. > > I can’t swear to this, but I read it in some reputable media source, IIRC. I could posssibly hunt around for it, but perhaps someone else remembers a source. If anyone does know the source, I would be very interested in seeing the cite. > [@](#): > > I think people are making too much of these things. It’s not impossible that GZ’s claims about the dialogue are incorrect. No, you are correct - it is certainly not impossible. And perhaps I am over-analyzing. But Zimmerman’s version of what was said are the weakest part of his story, IMO, and not least because it is the only part so far that hasn’t been backed up by the evidence. I can believe Martin sucker punched him, because Zimmerman had a broken nose. I can believe Martin was bashing Zimmerman’s head on the ground, because Zimmerman had cuts on the back of his head. I can believe Zimmerman was screaming for help, because somebody was screaming, and the lack of injuries to Martin (apart from the scraped knuckle) and the nature of the injuries to Zimmerman make it pretty clear that it was a very one-sided fight, up to the point where Zimmerman shot. And it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to be screaming for help while you are pounding the snot out of someone. While someone else is pounding the snot out of you, more like. > [@](#): > > I think that the same reasons that might make GZ make up TM saying these things are the same reasons that TM might actually say them, corny as you might think they are. Everyone is being influenced by the same culture. That’s a good point - Martin was a teenager, and sometimes they get their dialog from some crappy movies. Didn’t Martin’s Facebook account or webpage or something show him as something of a gangsta wannabe? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1535 "2012-05-18T21:36:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Wait no longer. > > I’ve read that GZ saw a TV interview with TM’s mother in which she specifically said she’d like to see GZ answer three questions. GZ took that at face value and tried to answer them to her directly, and on being rebuffed, at the hearing. The questions were whether he knew that he was unarmed, the fact that he was only 17, and one other thing that I forgot. > > I can’t swear to this, but I read it in some reputable media source, IIRC. I could posssibly hunt around for it, but perhaps someone else remembers a source I think you’re right. I remember seeing this interview in the news as well. I don’t remember a third question though. > [@](#): > > Amadou Daillo claimed that the police officers who sodomized him said “it’s Giuliani time”, and that turned out to have been lifted from a movie. But Diallo’s basic story was true enough for the jury. Amadou Diallo was gunned down by the NYPD when he fumbled for his wallet to get his ID card. You’re thinking of Abner Louima. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1536 "2012-05-18T21:36:56Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > No. Please try to read what I’m writing. He’d need to explain how the guy could die instantly (if this is what he claimed) and end up the way he did on the ground. If Zimmerman does not give any certainty about Martin’s movements post-shooting, then it’s not a big deal. But if Zimmerman was certain that Martin rolled off of him and landed in the exact position where he was found, never to move again, then this needs to be reconciled with the claim that Martin had been slamming Zimmerman’s head into the concrete seconds before being shot. This is not a trivial point–something just to throw one’s hands up in the air about. I don’t understand your point at all. Not even a tiny bit. Martin was found straddling the sidewalk. That is consistent with Zimmerman’s location where he said his head was slammed and where he said he maneuvered off of. It all took place along the edge of the common sidewalk behind the houses. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1537 "2012-05-18T21:41:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That’s a good point - Martin was a teenager, and sometimes they get their dialog from some crappy movies. Didn’t Martin’s Facebook account or webpage or something show him as something of a gangsta wannabe? > > Regards, > Shodan It was something like NO LIMIT NIGGA. not sure of the spelling. He also sported a fake set of gold teeth (grillz?). I have no idea what to make of it. there was also some reference about hitting a bus driver but surely that would have come to light by now if he had. I don’t think any of this is admissible without connecting it to something else but IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1538 "2012-05-18T21:43:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t understand your point at all. Not even a tiny bit. Martin was found straddling the sidewalk. That is consistent with Zimmerman’s location where he said his head was slammed and where he said he maneuvered off of. It all took place along the edge of the common sidewalk behind the houses. This is another of those points I don’t follow, like the idea that Zimmerman wasn’t really injured but convinced the police to say he was. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman when he was shot, then it stands to reason that Martin would move relative to where he was when he was bashing Zimmerman’s head (if that is what happened) when Zimmerman got up from under Martin. Plus, what reason would he have to re-arrange the body if he was guilty? If he moved the body, he had only a few seconds to do it. And again, if Martin didn’t really bash his head into the ground, where did Zimmerman get the cuts? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1539 "2012-05-18T21:43:32Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I don’t understand your point at all. Not even a tiny bit. Martin was found straddling the sidewalk. That is consistent with Zimmerman’s location where he said his head was slammed and where he said he maneuvered off of. It all took place along the edge of the common sidewalk behind the houses. Except his body was reversed though, right? His feet were near, or on the sidewalk, so his head would have been, what, 6’3" away from the sidewalk. How could Martin have been bashing his head into the sidewalk while he got shot and somehow end up reversed like that? Was he bashing Zimmerman’s head with his feet? Head to toe style? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1540 "2012-05-18T21:45:29Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > I disagree with this. Working as a bouncer teaches you how to handle drunk and belligerent individuals. You learn how to read people and how to protect yourself. The best bouncers can defuse a potentially violent situation with words and only resort to violence to protect themselves and others. From all accounts, Zimmerman’s first line of defense was his gun. > > Here is where I start: How many teenagers die that night if Zimmerman didn’t go hunting bad guys with a a loaded gun? Then I work backwards. The onus is on the adult carrying a lethal weapon. I believe Zimmerman behaved recklessly and should pay a price. I don’t think second degree muder is appropriate; I see this as negligent homicide, akin to causing a death while driving drunk. > > It’s ironic that the same people who rant and rave about ‘personal responsibility’ run and hide behind an insane legal statute that only encourages vigilante justice. That’s a good argument to change the insane statue, then. But certainly not to ignore it and convict Zimmerman anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1541 "2012-05-18T21:49:34Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Except his body was reversed though, right? His feet were near, or on the sidewalk, so his head would have been, what, 6’3" away from the sidewalk. How could Martin have been bashing his head into the sidewalk while he got shot and somehow end up reversed like that? I suppose the defense would propose that Martin got that way when Zimmerman pushed him off him after shooting him. It seems pretty easy to visualize - Martin is on top pounding Zimmerman, Zimmerman shoots, Martin rears up in reaction and Zimmerman pushes him off. Martin lands on his back reversed. Then Zimmerman leans over to see if he is alive - and the police arrive. And again, if he moved the body, why? If they were nowhere near the sidewalk, where did Zimmerman’s head wounds come from? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=76) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=78)