# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/141 "2012-04-20T16:17:43Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, um, no reaction to the head injury photo from team trayvon? After pages and pages about how he didn’t look injured in the police video? As I mentioned elsewhere, that always seemed like an odd thing to hang one’s hat on as proof of Zimmerman’s guilt. I can’t believe the police would put it in their report if it wasn’t there, and the notion that the police would accept Zimmerman’s word for it that he was bleeding when they could tell at a glance that he wasn’t is bizarre. It’s like the attorneys arguing that they could hear multiple shots fired. There weren’t; only one shot was fired and that can be proven pretty clearly. Saying otherwise just makes you look stupid. And then why should anyone listen when you claim you can recognize your son’s voice on the same tape? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/142 "2012-04-20T16:20:08Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Exactly. It’s rather telling when people will believe anything that supports Team Trayvon, demand official evidence foritems that don’t support Team Trayvon, and think that such items only really further support Team Trayvon if you just look at them right. I didn’t reject anything. I just asked you a pointed question about it’s worth as evidence. ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/143 "2012-04-20T16:25:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Even if they did use glue (which is doubtful if we take Zimmerman’s former [lawyer](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57406183/video-shows-zimmerman-without-obvious-injuries/)at his word when he said he’d needed stitches but didn’t get them because it too was late or something), [even closed wounds should be dressed to promote healing.](http://www.nursingtimes.net/nursing-practice-clinical-research/procedures-for-cleansing-closing-and-covering-acute-wounds/205033.article) I’m not disagreeing with you, and I do see the recommendations for further dressing with most wounds, but the rationale for it goes more towards the other type of wound closures. If that picture is accurate, I think using “glue” would be prudent just to stop the bleeding. I’m not sure if, given those circumstances, dressing is required. But, I’m just speculating that if that is an accurate picture why there was no bandaging/dressing in the police video. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/144 "2012-04-20T16:27:35Z")
I think both **Rand Rover** and **Shodan** are attacking a straw man. The question, at least in my mind, wasn’t whether there were any injuries _at all_. The question was the extent of the injuries. The question is, do they or do they not coincide with the claims of repeated bashing against concrete. Ultimately, the answer probably lies in the EMT report, but the _unofficial_ photos and videos don’t seem to support the idea of serious life threatening injury. And can we stop with the juvenile “Team Trayvon” crap? It adds nothing to the conversation and borders on ad hominem. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/145 "2012-04-20T16:34:20Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I think both **Rand Rover** and **Shodan** are attacking a straw man. The question, at least in my mind, wasn’t whether there were any injuries _at all_. The question was the extent of the injuries. The question is, do they or do they not coincide with the claims of repeated bashing against concrete. > > Ultimately, the answer probably lies in the EMT report, but the _unofficial_ photos and videos don’t seem to support the idea of serious life threatening injury. No one ever claimed that Zimmerman received a serious life threatening injury. The law does not require you to receive a serious life threatening injury in order to use deadly force in self-defense. And go try bashing the back of your head on grass. Hit it sufficiently hard and you may receive a concussion. But you won’t get lacerations. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/146 "2012-04-20T16:35:28Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > Yeah, that’s quite a life threatening gusher he’s got trickling down the nape of his neck. Good thing he blew a hole into Martin’s chest before he could put another nick on him. > > Happy? Are you suggesting Zimmerman should have waited until he had life threatening injuries before defending himself? ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/147 "2012-04-20T16:37:15Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What I find strange is that Zimmerman is testifying at the hearing and talking to everybody. This guy desperately needs a good lawyer who will put a muzzle on him. From what I’ve seen of the new guy, he seems very sharp, not that I’m an expert. And Zimmerman seems to have a habit of doing things against the advice of his lawyers, if his ex-lawyers can be believed. They can’t put a muzzle on him, they can only suggest he wear one voluntarily. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/148 "2012-04-20T16:40:02Z")
By the way, I think the defense lawyer during the hearing claimed to have medical records documenting Zimmerman’s broken nose, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/149 "2012-04-20T16:40:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one ever claimed that Zimmerman received a serious life threatening injury. The law does not require you to receive a serious life threatening injury in order to use deadly force in self-defense. > > And go try bashing the back of your head on grass. Hit it sufficiently hard and you may receive a concussion. But you won’t get lacerations. What if there is a tiny pebble in the grass or a small stick poking up. Still say its impossible to get a scratch? Anyone speaking in absolutes on these topics is kind of showing their bias imho. To be so certain of things like this is folly at this stage of the process. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/150 "2012-04-20T16:41:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one ever claimed that Zimmerman received a serious life threatening injury. The law does not require you to receive a serious life threatening injury in order to use deadly force in self-defense. > > And go try bashing the back of your head on grass. Hit it sufficiently hard and you may receive a concussion. But you won’t get lacerations. Okay. I was guilty of using some hyperbole when I said “life threatening”. I admit that and apologize. What I should have said was that it doesn’t appear to be consistent with repeated bashing against concrete (or is the story now that it was grass? I can’t keep up.) ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/151 "2012-04-20T16:42:43Z")
> [@BottledBlondJeanie](#): > > I’m not disagreeing with you, and I do see the recommendations for further dressing with most wounds, \*\*but the rationale for it goes more towards the other type of wound closures. \*\* No it doesn’t. The rationale for dressing closed wounds is the same regardless of closure method. I can say this confidently as a vet. > [@](#): > > If that picture is accurate, I think using “glue” would be prudent just to stop the bleeding. If Zimmerman had a gash on his head incurred from the ground or sidewalk, it would be pretty contaminated with dirt and other debris, even if it was washed as thoroughly as can be in the back of a police care. Closure is usually contradicated for dirty wounds because of the risk of infection. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/152 "2012-04-20T16:42:48Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you suggesting Zimmerman should have waited until he had life threatening injuries before defending himself? No. That would have taken hours, judging by that picture. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/153 "2012-04-20T16:44:33Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Okay. I was guilty of using some hyperbole when I said “life threatening”. I admit that and apologize. What I should have said was that it doesn’t appear to be consistent with repeated bashing against concrete (or is the story now that it was grass? I can’t keep up.) First, we have no idea what Zimmerman’s information was during his interrogation - whether he claimed concrete or grass or whatever. Second - when you feel the back of your head hitting something hard enough to cause lacerations, you may be excused for thinking that maybe you’re not on grass. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/154 "2012-04-20T16:44:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > Okay. I was guilty of using some hyperbole when I said “life threatening”. I admit that and apologize. What I should have said was that it doesn’t appear to be consistent with repeated bashing against concrete (or is the story now that it was grass? I can’t keep up.) Martin’s body was found in the middle of the grass, nowhere near the sidewalk, iirc. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/155 "2012-04-20T16:51:29Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I think both **Rand Rover** and **Shodan** are attacking a straw man. The question, at least in my mind, wasn’t whether there were any injuries _at all_. The question was the extent of the injuries. The question is, do they or do they not coincide with the claims of repeated bashing against concrete. In the other, locked threads there were a number of posts that appeared to believe that Zimmerman had no visible injuries at all. > [@](#): > > What I should have said was that it doesn’t appear to be consistent with repeated bashing against concrete… This is IMHO after all, but what experience are you basing this on? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![newme](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e0b2c6/32.png) [@newme](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newme)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/156 "2012-04-20T16:52:16Z")
New information which came out in the hearing today. I am paraphrasing from memory: \*Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence to refute Mr Zimmerman’s claim he turned around and was heading back in the direction of his truck? Investigator: No Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence to refute Mr Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin threw the first punch? Investigator: No Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence that contradicts any of Mr Zimmerman’s statements to police? Investigator: Yes\* We also heard there is a witness who saw “shadows through the window” of people moving about before the fight. They seemed to say someone was following someone else in the dogwalk area, heading north?? toward where the shooting occurred. Did anyone else catch that? This is the first I’ve heard about this witness. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/157 "2012-04-20T16:57:02Z")
> [@newme](#): > > New information which came out in the hearing today. I am paraphrasing from memory: > > \*Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence to refute Mr Zimmerman’s claim he turned around and was heading back in the direction of his truck? > > Investigator: No > > Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence to refute Mr Zimmerman’s claim that Trayvon Martin threw the first punch? > > Investigator: No > > Defense Attorney: Do you have evidence that contradicts any of Mr Zimmerman’s statements to police? > > Investigator: Yes\* > > We also heard there is a witness who saw “shadows through the window” of people moving about before the fight. They seemed to say someone was following someone else in the dogwalk area, heading north?? toward where the shooting occurred. Did anyone else catch that? This is the first I’ve heard about this witness. I didn’t see the coverage, but I assume the state will try to show that Zimmerman’s statements are self-serving and not credible, and try their case based on the remaining evidence. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/158 "2012-04-20T16:57:09Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you suggesting Zimmerman should have waited until he had life threatening injuries before defending himself? > [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No. That would have taken hours, judging by that picture. Ahh, so it’s more of a “take your beating sucker” position? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/159 "2012-04-20T16:58:10Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Martin’s body was found in the middle of the grass, nowhere near the sidewalk, iirc. I recall hearing the claim that Zimmerman’s head was beat repeatedly against concrete. Here you go: [http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/20/abc-exclusive-new-zimmerman-photo-shows-bloodied-back-head-warning-graphic-photo](http://nation.foxnews.com/george-zimmerman/2012/04/20/abc-exclusive-new-zimmerman-photo-shows-bloodied-back-head-warning-graphic-photo) > [@](#): > > A new photograph obtained exclusively by ABC News showing the bloodied back of George Zimmerman’s head, which was apparently taken three minutes after he shot and killed Trayvon Martin, gives possible credence to his claim that Martin had bashed his head against the concrete as Zimmerman fought for his life. [http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/nation/video-george-zimmermans-story-that-trayvon-martin-attacked-him-questioned](http://www.newjerseynewsroom.com/nation/video-george-zimmermans-story-that-trayvon-martin-attacked-him-questioned) > [@](#): > > Neighborhood watch captain George Zimmerman told police he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense after an altercation where Martin repeatedly bashed his head into a concrete walkway. Zimmerman was said to be bleeding from the nose and the back of his head, and his lawyer said Martin broke Zimmerman’s nose in the fight. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/160 "2012-04-20T17:07:38Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > No. That would have taken hours, judging by that picture. > [@treis](#): > > Ahh, so it’s more of a “take your beating sucker” position? It’s not really relevant until it’s established who started the fight. Zimmerman has no defense if he shot Martin because he was losing a fight he started himself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=9)