# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 85
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1682 "2012-05-19T21:02:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For this reason, I wish you’d stop framing it the other way. And I wish you would call out Magiver for framing Martin’s death as a tragedy that could have been prevented if hadn’t taken been so reckless and danger-seeking as to simply be outdoors talking to his gf. Meanwhile, Zimmerman’s conduct is excused becaused he was obviously just trying to keep an eye on the kid, on the grounds that it’s not illegal to do that. But I’m the one who is supposedly framing the issue wrong because I never lose sight that it’s Zimmerman who is on trial for wrongdoing. Not Martin. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1683 "2012-05-19T21:13:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Some would see the fact that he ended up shot and killed by Zimmerman as sufficient evidence that the kid had good reason to fear Zimmerman. When you talk about facts the only one we know for sure is that Martin was seen beating Zimmerman. All the physical evidence backs this up. There is no evidence that Martin had to fear Zimmerman prior to the fight. He was not threatened. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > How many times does it need to be explained that just because Martin didn’t lay down and let Zimmerman have his way with him, doesn’t mean Martin did anything wrong by popping Zimmerman in the face. If only he was alive, he’d be able to tell us his side of the story. As it is, we have no reason to believe Zimmerman when he said Martin attacked him first. That statement makes absolutely no sense. there is no indication that Zimmerman started the fight. If you’re promoting the idea that Martin had a right to strike Zimmerman first that is pure legal nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1684 "2012-05-19T21:14:16Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > The effects of alcohol are not at all similiar to those of marijuana. Do you really not know this? Yes, you could discern the signs of alcohol intoxication while observing someone walking at night. Stumbling and weaving, most commonly. What do you imagine happens to someone who had a few hits on a joint? That they would be floating down the street? The claim on the table seems to be that if somebody is visibly intoxicated, it’s normally the result of “heavy drugs” which apparently does not include alcohol or marijuana. Are you defending this claim? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1685 "2012-05-19T21:15:17Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You frame the issue as though Martin was under some kind of special obligation not to defend himself against a threatening figure Martin was, in fact, under “special obligation” not to assault physically someone who followed him and asked him a question. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1686 "2012-05-19T21:17:25Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And I wish you would call out Magiver for framing Martin’s death as a tragedy that could have been prevented if hadn’t taken been so reckless and danger-seeking as to simply be outdoors talking to his gf. And punching Zimmerman in the face, and smashing his head into the ground. You forgot that little detail, again. > [@](#): > > Meanwhile, Zimmerman’s conduct is excused becaused he was obviously just trying to keep an eye on the kid, on the grounds that it’s not illegal to do that. Absolutely correct. > [@](#): > > But I’m the one who is supposedly framing the issue wrong because I never lose sight that it’s Zimmerman who is on trial for wrongdoing. Not Martin. Again, absolutely correct, except that it’s not reached trial yet. So, he must be presumed innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1687 "2012-05-19T21:19:31Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > And I wish you would call out Magiver for framing Martin’s death as a tragedy that could have been prevented if hadn’t taken been so reckless and danger-seeking as to simply be outdoors talking to his gf. . I framed it that both parties could have avoided it with dialogue but you ignored that. Martin could have further prevented it by not beating the fuck out of Zimmerman. About the only way you can apparently understand that is if someone pounds that into your head Martin style. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Meanwhile, Zimmerman’s conduct is excused becaused he was obviously just trying to keep an eye on the kid, on the grounds that it’s not illegal to do that. Yes, that’s correct. Zimmerman did nothing that warranted a fight. All we know is that Martin was beating him up. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But I’m the one who is supposedly framing the issue wrong because I never lose sight that it’s Zimmerman who is on trial for wrongdoing. Not Martin. And I pointed out that Martin would have been on trial for the beating had the police arrived before he was shot. Your logic is flawed with emotion and not the facts. What is needed to convict Zimmerman of anything is to prove that he wasn’t in fear of his life or that he started the fight. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1688 "2012-05-19T22:08:42Z")
[http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/19/2806555/evidence-against-zimmerman-lacking.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/19/2806555/evidence-against-zimmerman-lacking.html) ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1689 "2012-05-19T22:15:16Z")
> [@brazil84](#): > > The claim on the table seems to be that if somebody is visibly intoxicated, it’s normally the result of “heavy drugs” which apparently does not include alcohol or marijuana. > > Are you defending this claim? You. Cannot. Detect. The. Effects. Of. A. Small. Amount. Of. Marijuana. By. Observing. The . User. Simply. Walking. At. Night. I can’t make it any simpler. Close-up, in good light, you might notice some redness in the eyes. But you still wouldn’t know if they had smoked marijuana or if they had been crying or if they had allergies. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1690 "2012-05-19T22:28:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You may have no reason, but you can’t convict someone only because you have no reason to believe him. You have to have specific evidence to rely on to DISbelieve him. To convict him, you have to point to things that prove he’s lying. And not just hint at it. PROVE IT. Beyond a reasonable doubt. > > For this reason, I wish you’d stop framing it the other way. The thing is that this is the IMHO forum, and the thread title specifically calls for opinions and speculation. IOW, it’s about as diametrically opposed to what happens in a court of law as you can get. There’s nothing wrong with some people also speculating and stating their opinions about how the legal process will play out, but that is not the only thing being discussed in this thread, and there are no evidence standards or burden of proof here. Insisting that the conversation in this thread meet any such legal standards is kind of silly - people are mostly all just spit-balling here. Even if all the evidence that exists were currently available to us, which it obviously isn’t, the only (living) person in the world that knows --and will ever know-- the _whole_ truth is George Zimmerman. Since we can never know if we know all that he knows, we’re left to draw whatever inferences we can from what we do know. The court will decide what it decides, and that’s the best our system of justice can provide, but lets not pretend to expect that it will provide the whole truth. I’ll hazard to guess that most of the people here who believe that GZ deserves blame and scorn for what happened, also don’t expect that he will be convicted of any substantive charges. The outcome of the trial is not the point (or at least the whole point), a lot of us are here to gain and share insight into what we think happened, and to serve up our measure of blame and scorn, since that’s likely to be the most significant “punishment” that GZ ever receives for what he did. (at least IMHO) Perhaps a poll is in order, because I’d be interested to hear how many people think that GZ will be convicted of manslaughter or greater. I doubt there are that many who do. If anybody wants to do the poll, feel free, because I’m not in the mood. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1691 "2012-05-19T23:12:44Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > You. Cannot. Detect. The. Effects. Of. A. Small. Amount. Of. Marijuana. By. Observing. The . User. Simply. Walking. At. Night. > > I can’t make it any simpler. Close-up, in good light, you might notice some redness in the eyes. But you still wouldn’t know if they had smoked marijuana or if they had been crying or if they had allergies. As I said before, I will reserve judgment on this issue. It seems to me that if a person is legally intoxicated (in some jurisdictions anyway), then it’s not outrageous to think that their gait and body language might be noticeably affected. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1692 "2012-05-19T23:14:52Z")
So this is just sitting around bullshitting, with no accountability for what you say matching up with any real world facts, processes, or outcomes? Huh. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1693 "2012-05-20T00:03:11Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Those lacerations, as small as they are, could be caused by a number of things. Head-bashing on a concrete sidewalk is one. But they are also consistent with an incidental injury incurred after being knocked on the ground by a punch in the nose. … I’m not seeing how all of the injuries, that I knew of before I just read about “scratches” on Z’s forehead, aren’t consistent with a punch in the nose that knocked him down. (Looking like a raccoon, two black eyes, is extremely common after a nose job . . . and plastic surgeons use more delicate instruments than their fists to break your nose.) That the injuries are more consistent with a single blow and not “beating the fuck out of” won’t slow anyone down I fear. > [@Terr](#): > > I have gone through the documents on scribd. The only witness account that was not public before was someone seeing two people running, one after another, not being able to tell who was after who. > > There is no explosive new evidence. Nothing really new except the autopsy reports and medical report on Zimmerman. … Nope nothing new there! Someone remind me, has Zimmerman being chased by Martin or Zimmerman chasing Martin been part of anyone’s version of what happened that night? > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > [http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/19/2806555/evidence-against-zimmerman-lacking.html](http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/05/19/2806555/evidence-against-zimmerman-lacking.html) > [@](#): > > … Zimmerman was monitoring his neighborhood on a rainy evening **when he first noticed Trayvon walking behind a row of homes** on his way to his father’s apartment. … Guess I’ve missed a whole lot more than I thought. I mean, walking behind peoples houses is a whole lot more incriminating than how long it takes to pay a cashier because you might be high . . . but, why haven’t I seen anyone mention this piece of [del]bullshit[/del] “evidence” before? CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1694 "2012-05-20T00:09:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So this is just sitting around bullshitting, with no accountability for what you say matching up with any real world facts, processes, or outcomes? All we need now is someone with an unassailable grasp of real world facts to keep us from going astray… ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1695 "2012-05-20T00:35:38Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So this is just sitting around bullshitting, with no accountability for what you say matching up with any real world facts, processes, or outcomes? > > Huh. Well, it sure as shit ain’t a court of law. And it’s not even GQ or GD. It is still the SDMB though, so if someone says something that doesn’t match the known facts, they will be (and are being) called on it, and rightly so. But not all the knowable facts are currently known, and there are a plethora of unknowable facts that will never be known. People are filling in the blanks with opinions and speculation. Go back and read your post that I was replying to. Do you really think the standard your espousing there is reasonable for this particular venue? Do you really think that this thread should, or even can, match the processes of a court of law? Now go back and read **YwtF** ’s post that you were responding to there. IMO, you’re talking past each other, because she (right?) starts her post with the phrase “Some would see” which implies that what follows isn’t what a court of law would see, more like what the court of public opinion would see. Both the real court and the IMHO court should be based on facts, but no, the processes and outcomes aren’t/shouldn’t/won’t be the same. Look, I’m not trying to stifle any legal expertise and opinions you and others are contributing to the thread, because I do actually appreciate that angle. All I’m saying is that, IMO, not everybody here is talking about what will happen in a court of law. Some people are only talking about what they think happened on the night a teenager coming home with a snack got killed by a guy on his way to Target, and just trying to make sense of the senseless. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1696 "2012-05-20T00:59:40Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > Look, I’m not trying to stifle any legal expertise and opinions you and others are contributing to the thread, because I do actually appreciate that angle. All I’m saying is that, IMO, not everybody here is talking about what will happen in a court of law. Some people are only talking about what they think happened on the night a teenager coming home with a snack got killed by a guy on his way to Target, and just trying to make sense of the senseless. Sometimes I think **Bricker** gets this and I’m glad. But then he lapses back into Robo-Lawyer. Maybe your post will jolt him back to IMHO mode. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1697 "2012-05-20T01:05:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Sometimes I think **Bricker** gets this and I’m glad. But then he lapses back into Robo-Lawyer. Maybe your post will jolt him back to IMHO mode. Well, if all we’re doing is talking and throwing our ideas out there willy nilly, then will you agree not to challenge what anyone says in the future because, hey, it’s just their opinion and all? And if you’re not, what standard do we use to determine what is challengeable and what is not? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1698 "2012-05-20T01:46:18Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Guess I’ve missed a whole lot more than I thought. The statement appears to be from Jeffrey Weiner, but it is hard to tell. > [@](#): > > “This case was never a second-degree murder case,” said longtime Miami defense lawyer Jeffrey Weiner. “If anything, it was an over-reaction in a self-defense situation.” > > Zimmerman was monitoring his neighborhood on a rainy evening when he first noticed Trayvon walking behind a row of homes on his way to his father’s apartment. Zimmerman called the police to report a “suspicious guy” — the kind of complaint Zimmerman made routinely in his role as neighborhood watchman. Monitoring is wrong. Zimmerman was driving to Target when he saw Martin. IIRC, that was near the clubhouse. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1699 "2012-05-20T01:54:12Z")
Since this is the general opinion thread, here’s my take: I am completely flummoxed why anybody outside of local law enforcement and the friends and family of those involved would care about this case. I’m flabbergasted at the amount of attention it has drawn, especially here at the SDMB. We’re at, what, over 5,000 posts in multiple threads about this case? Anyway, that’s all. You can go back to your regularly-scheduled discussion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1700 "2012-05-20T01:55:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So this is just sitting around bullshitting, with no accountability for what you say matching up with any real world facts, processes, or outcomes? > > Huh. Since we actual evidence to discuss now, maybe we should split an actual evidence based thread from the bullshit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1701 "2012-05-20T01:56:59Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Since we actual evidence to discuss now, maybe we should split an actual evidence based thread from the bullshit thread. Interpreting the actual evidence will be no less opinion-based than this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=84) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=86)