# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1722 "2012-05-20T15:54:48Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > The yell on that tape is not consistent with someone getting punched or throttled against the sidewalk. The voice doesnt fade in and out in the way one would expect it would, if it was Zimmerman’s and he was being beaten. What makes me suspicious is that there’s a lot of drama supposedly unfolding while that screaming is occurring. Not only is Zimmerman’s head getting bashed, but he’s being suffocated and (supposedly) wrestling for a gun. I would think that the nature of the screams would change based on the turn of events. Not just in volume, but in the actual content. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1723 "2012-05-20T15:58:16Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition) > Zimmerman didn’t just have two lacerations on the back of his head. He had some serious abrasions back there. None of the reports Ive read have noted abrasions on the back of his head. Only those to cuts. Please do not make up stuff. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1724 "2012-05-20T16:02:08Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition) > Zimmerman didn’t just have two lacerations on the back of his head. He had some serious abrasions back there. This is what the article says: > [@](#): > > According to a report from the Sanford Fire Department, released Thursday, Zimmerman had **"abrasions to his forehead** ," “bleeding/tenderness to his nose” and a “small laceration to the back of his head” when emergency personnel arrived at the scene at 7:27 p.m., six minutes after they were first called. Please see the bold and let the words make an impression on your brain. There is nothing in the article about a serious anything. Nothing about abrasions to the back of the head. And there was just one small laceration that is not consistent with a repeated anything, let alone _bashing_. The rest of the article is chock full of details that make Zimmerman look simply awful, though. It’s interesting that you would overlook all of that to comment on the “serious” abrasions. Good job, man. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1725 "2012-05-20T16:18:12Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > None of the reports Ive read have noted abrasions on the back of his head. Only those to cuts. Please do not make up stuff. This isn’t rocket science. You must have seen abrasions before. Those are obviously abrasions in the photo of the back of Zimmerman’s head.. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1726 "2012-05-20T16:28:49Z")
I see no abrasions on his head, and the most that the paramedics on the scene and Z’s doc noted, as far as I know, have been small cuts. Do no mistake areas of redness as bruises or abrasions. Some splotches on his head look like blood stains. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1727 "2012-05-20T16:54:25Z")
Since this is a speculation thread, I would like to know the answer to a question that is unanswerable to any degree of certainty. If George Zimmerman were to have NOT been carrying a fire arm that night would he have still persued Martin on foot? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1728 "2012-05-20T16:59:24Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > This isn’t rocket science. You must have seen abrasions before. Those are obviously abrasions in the photo of the back of Zimmerman’s head.. I don’t see any abrasions, just blood drips that seem to defy gravity. How does blood drip diagonally? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1729 "2012-05-20T17:01:34Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition) > Zimmerman didn’t just have two lacerations on the back of his head. He had some serious abrasions back there. I’m not sure what you mean by “serious,” but if you look at the pictures, there are definitely red marks on his skin without the skin bleeding in those areas. I think that pretty much meets the definition of “abrasion.” Keep in mind that until recently, **you with the face** was insisting that Zimmerman’s head was not injured at all and that I was “insane” for suspecting otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1730 "2012-05-20T17:13:30Z")
Anyone noticing how the police’s descriptions of Zimmerman’s injuries are crucially important…until they aren’t? The police checked the dude out. They did not document any abrasions on the back of his head. Furthermore, all the talk about “serious” is bullshit since the guy declined medical care and the police didn’t argue with him The extent of his injuries are inconsequential to a claim of SYG. According to what I have gathered, Martin could have inflicted NO injuries and Zimmerman would have still been within his right to shoot him. So ya’ll are wasting your time on this. Just stop. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1731 "2012-05-20T17:16:39Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Since this is a speculation thread, I would like to know the answer to a question that is unanswerable to any degree of certainty. If George Zimmerman were to have NOT been carrying a fire arm that night would he have still persued Martin on foot? Hell to the naw! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1732 "2012-05-20T17:19:51Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It’s borderline retarded to say something like this even after he’s been charged with murder. If it was all so easy to conclude what you have as an armchair spectator, then there wouldn’t be need for a trial. Especially since only a portion of the State’s evidence has been released. And the original attorney did not see a case. This was the result of a great deal of protests from the likes of Sharpton who have a habit of getting it wrong. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Have you seen the text messages that Corey has? For all you know, Zimmerman could have admitted to restraining the kid. Maybe he bragged about showing him who’s boss by showing him his weapon. Maybe he admitted to threatening the kid prior to the struggle. Any of that would have given Martin the right to stand his ground. Maybe Martin sucker punched Zimmerman to the ground and then jumped on him before wailing on him. Maybe is for people who want to fill in the blanks to make things fit a pre-determined outcome. All we know NOW is that Zimmerman’s story is consistent with the evidence we know NOW. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Oh but you say, authoritatively, as if you were right there watching the whole scene unfold, that Zimmerman did nothing that warranted a fight. Good thing we have you around to tell us what’s what. Again with the emotional baggage. There is no evidence NOW that he did anything to warrant a fight. Do you not understand that? You can speculate what you want to believe but until new information comes out there is no evidence who started the fight. We know that Martin and Zimmerman made eye contact while Zimmerman was in his truck. We know Martin took the sidewalk that goes behind the houses. We know Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow him. We know Martin ran/jogged and Zimmerman ran/jogged after him. We know Martin engaged Zimmerman first in conversation, words were exchanged in an elevated tone from both of them, a fight ensued which resulted in Martin on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s face and head showed signs of being beaten. Martin’s hand showed signs of striking. Witness accounts bear this out. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1733 "2012-05-20T17:23:06Z")
The witness who told police that he saw one guy on top of another, said the top guy was fighting the other guy “MMA style”. That is such a slang description, it is hard to know what exactly was meant by it, but one possibility in my mind is that Martin was not primarily using his fists to dominate Zimmerman, but may have been grinding Zimmerman’s head against the pavement as they wrestled (with the heels of his hand, his forearms, his elbows). The back of Zimmerman’s head could get cut that way, and Martin’s hands wouldn’t show a lot of injury. The whining, pleading cries for “help” overheard on one of the tapes do not sound to me to be coming from someone who is being repeatedly punched. They sound like they might be coming from someone who is being pinned, or caused great pain, and is frightened. Some of the stories that have been put out by Zimmerman’s family on his behalf say that at times Martin put his hand over Zimmerman’s mouth. But it might be that Martin at times had an elbow in Zimmerman’s face, or forearm, with his weight behind it. I don’t know who started the fight. Given DeeDee’s “earwitness” testimony that she heard Martin say “Get off, get off” before his phone was cut off, it is plausible to me that Zimmerman tried to keep Martin from moving away (grabbed his arm, clothes) and Martin reacted with physical resistance. What is curious to me is that none of the cries overheard on the audio tape are “Police! Police!” It is always hard to be sure what one might do actually instead of hypothetically, but I tend to think if I were fearing harm from a stranger enough to want to repeatedly yell for help, among the things I would yell is “Police! Police!” – especially if I had any reason to believe some might be near enough to hear. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1734 "2012-05-20T17:27:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > And the original attorney did not see a case. This was the result of a great deal of protests from the likes of Sharpton who have a habit of getting it wrong. > > Maybe Martin sucker punched Zimmerman to the ground and then jumped on him before wailing on him. Maybe is for people who want to fill in the blanks to make things fit a pre-determined outcome. All we know NOW is that Zimmerman’s story is consistent with the evidence we know NOW. > > Again with the emotional baggage. There is no evidence NOW that he did anything to warrant a fight. Do you not understand that? You can speculate what you want to believe but until new information comes out there is no evidence who started the fight. We know that Martin and Zimmerman made eye contact while Zimmerman was in his truck. We know Martin took the sidewalk that goes behind the houses. We know Zimmerman got out of his truck to follow him. We know Martin ran/jogged and Zimmerman ran/jogged after him. We know Martin engaged Zimmerman first in conversation, words were exchanged in an elevated tone from both of them, a fight ensued which resulted in Martin on top of Zimmerman. Zimmerman’s face and head showed signs of being beaten. Martin’s hand showed signs of striking. > > Witness accounts bear this out. Martin’s hand shows no such thing. They found a small scratch on a finger, below a knuckle. He could have acquired such an injury any time during that day. The one witness that originally reported seeing Martin going to town on Zimmerman is now on the record saying he isn’t sure what he saw. I keep waiting for you or someone else to comment about this backpedaling, and all I’m hearing is crickets. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1735 "2012-05-20T17:32:32Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The extent of his injuries are inconsequential to a claim of SYG. According to what I have gathered, Martin could have inflicted NO injuries and Zimmerman would have still been within his right to shoot him. You’re right about SYG, but the extent of his injuries aren’t irrelevant wrt to Zimmerman’s credibility. He is the one who is playing up the severity of his injuries and using that to explain why he shot Martin. That means his story needs to line up with his injuries. Head banging with no extensive blood smear pattern, no diffuse bruising on the occipitum, and no abrasions are more improbabilities that the jury will have to swallow. Also, how exactly did Martin get a grip on Zimmerman’s head sufficient to do all this banging? Certainly this would mean his fingers would have applied pressure somewhere to his face. Where are his finger marks? You’da think the defense would have figured out that by hamming up his injuries, they would raise everyone’s expectations. But there was no ER visit. No immediate attempt by Z to seek medical care. No follow up with a specialist. So not even Z took his own injuries serious at the time they occurred. And yet the defense is still pushing the “serious injury” angle. It is to laugh. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1736 "2012-05-20T17:33:35Z")
\>\>The one witness that originally reported seeing Martin going to town on Zimmerman is now on the record saying he isn’t sure what he saw\<\< I think there is more than one witness who spoke about a fight. Do you have a link to the original testimony you are referring to, and the subsequent re-think from the same person? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1737 "2012-05-20T17:36:45Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > More dueling audio experts: > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/trayvon-martin-case-911-call-two-experts-reach-two-much-different-conclusions/2012/05/19/gIQAtuapbU_story.html) > > A little more interesting than the last time. Thank you for the link, it’s hilarious. The expert thinks that a 17-yo African American kid is yelling “I am begging you” at Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1738 "2012-05-20T17:40:39Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > The witness who told police that he saw one guy on top of another, said the top guy was fighting the other guy “MMA style”. That is such a slang description, it is hard to know what exactly was meant by it, but one possibility in my mind is that Martin was not primarily using his fists to dominate Zimmerman, but may have been grinding Zimmerman’s head against the pavement as they wrestled (with the heels of his hand, his forearms, his elbows). The back of Zimmerman’s head could get cut that way, and Martin’s hands wouldn’t show a lot of injury. But grinding would cause abrasions before it would cause neat, linear cuts near the crown of his head and situated far from each other. Also, grinding would result in blood smear. Not well-defined dribble lines. > [@](#): > > The whining, pleading cries for “help” overheard on one of the tapes do not sound to me to be coming from someone who is being repeatedly punched. They sound like they might be coming from someone who is being pinned, or caused great pain, and is frightened. To me, it sounds like the voice of someone who is being held at gunpoint and is unable to get away. There only defense at that point is to scream. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1739 "2012-05-20T17:42:00Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > \>\>The one witness that originally reported seeing Martin going to town on Zimmerman is now on the record saying he isn’t sure what he saw\<\< > > I think there is more than one witness who spoke about a fight. Do you have a link to the original testimony you are referring to, and the subsequent re-think from the same person? \*\*monstro \*\*is misleading you. The one witness that originally reported Martin beating up Zimmerman did not say he isn’t sure that Martin was beating up Zimmerman. He said he wasn’t sure who was screaming since he couldn’t see the mouths. But he is still saying it was Martin sitting on Zimmerman beating him up. Here’s the funny part - **monstro** is all “doubtful” about the screams from Zimmerman. He doesn’t see the incongruity of the claim that Martin, while beating up Zimmerman, was screaming for help for 38 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1740 "2012-05-20T17:43:36Z")
@you with the face, \>\>Head banging with no extensive blood smear pattern, no diffuse bruising on the occipitum, and no abrasions are more improbabilities that the jury will have to swallow. Also, how exactly did Martin get a grip on Zimmerman’s head sufficient to do all this banging? Certainly this would mean his fingers would have applied pressure somewhere to his face. Where are his finger marks?\<\< I agree with you about how a jury will analyze the self-defense claim, and also that GZ has to be able to provide a consistent account of the events of that evening, or else open itself up to skepticism about weaving tales, and not being truthful. GZ’s overall credibility may be crucial if he is claiming that he feared his life not because Martin reached for his gun. Witnesses on the scene say GZ’s first explanation of the shooting was “He beat me up, so I had to shoot him.” If mention of Martin reaching for the gun doesn’t turn up in GZ’s story until later, he may have a credibility problem with the jury. I believe that GZ’s DNA was found under Martin’s fingernails, raising the possibility in my mind that Martin had dug his fingers into GZ’s face and had leverage that way rather than punches. I’m not sure a jury can be brought to believe there was no fight, and that Martin was not dominating the fight. But they may think Martin was justified in fighting. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1741 "2012-05-20T17:44:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Here’s the funny part - **monstro** is all “doubtful” about the screams from Zimmerman. He doesn’t see the incongruity of the claim that Martin, while beating up Zimmerman, was screaming for help for 38 seconds. Probably because she doesn’t take it as a given, like you seem to do, that Martin was beating up Zimmerman for the last 40 min of his life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=88)