# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 88
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1742 "2012-05-20T17:48:02Z")
@Terr, \>\>monstro is all “doubtful” about the screams from Zimmerman. \<\< I am open to doubt that they are not Zimmerman’s cries. There are witnesses who told police they were Martin’s screams. If Zimmerman was struggling to get his gun from his holster, he might not have been yelling for help, and Martin might have been. But having listened to the tape with the cries, and heard Zimmerman’s voice at the bail hearing, it sounds to me that it was Zimmerman whining, pleading. But I’m open to new evidence. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1743 "2012-05-20T17:49:54Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > I believe that GZ’s DNA was found under Martin’s fingernails, raising the possibility in my mind that Martin had dug his fingers into GZ’s face and had leverage that way rather than punches. But there has to be corresponding injuries on Z’s face, if that is the case. Certainly if Martin dug in his nails to get the leverage necessary to repeatedly move his head like that, there would fingernail scratch marks on his scalp and face. But there’s nothing like that there. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1744 "2012-05-20T17:50:44Z")
PS: @you with the face: I just can’t tell about how the head would be cut. I would think it would depend on what was on the sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![stw004](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@stw004](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stw004)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1745 "2012-05-20T17:52:08Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Thank you for the link, it’s hilarious. The expert thinks that a 17-yo African American kid is yelling “I am begging you” at Zimmerman. Because African Americans are incapable of constructing coherent sentences? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1746 "2012-05-20T17:54:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > \*\*monstro \*\*is misleading you. The one witness that originally reported Martin beating up Zimmerman did not say he isn’t sure that Martin was beating up Zimmerman. He said he wasn’t sure who was screaming since he couldn’t see the mouths. But he is still saying it was Martin sitting on Zimmerman beating him up. [Nope.](http://edition.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?eref=edition) > [@Witness 6](#): > > I can’t truly see how close they were to each other; if he was hitting him, or if he was trying to hold him down in that position until cops got there. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1747 "2012-05-20T17:54:53Z")
@you with the face, Sorry. We were posting at the same time. I’ve not seen all the medical reports. I don’t know how thorough they were. I think I can hold somebody’s face with great force without gouging my fingernails into their skin. I don’t know how big Martin’s hands were. I have a nephew who can grip a basketball with one hand. I have only been trying to figure out in my own mind why the cries on the tape don’t sound like they are coming from somebody who is being repeatedly punched. One possibility is that they are coming from Martin – whose autopsied body showed no signs of being punched. The other is that Martin only punched Zimmerman a very few times, and otherwise used weight and leverage to keep Zimmerman pinned and in pain. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1748 "2012-05-20T17:57:22Z")
@Larry Mudd Thanks for the link. It is taking a long time to load – and right now I am going to make my dinner, so I’ll have to look at it later. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1749 "2012-05-20T17:59:30Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Hell to the naw! Serious answer: There is at least one instance where Zimmerman decides against leaving the vehicle but there were two “suspects” and I don’t know when Zimmerman bought his gun. Zimmerman bought his gun in December 2009. [(Reuters)](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/25/us-usa-florida-shooting-zimmerman-idUSBRE83O18H20120425) So it was available two him on Oct. 1, 2011 or Aug. 6, 2011. [(The Daily Beast)](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/22/george-zimmerman-s-history-of-911-calls-a-complete-log.html) There is audio of one of those calls where he says he doesn’t want to go out there. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1750 "2012-05-20T18:00:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > \*\*monstro \*\*is misleading you. The one witness that originally reported Martin beating up Zimmerman did not say he isn’t sure that Martin was beating up Zimmerman. He said he wasn’t sure who was screaming since he couldn’t see the mouths. But he is still saying it was Martin sitting on Zimmerman beating him up. That is simply not true. The witness said that while he is sure that Martin was on top, he is less certain about what Martin was doing. He said he was either hitting Zimmerman or pinning him down–though initially he said he was punching MMA-style. How do you confusing punching MMA-style and _pinning_ someone, I’d like to know. But my point is that he is no longer sure that Martin was going to town on Zimmerman, as he originally said. I invite you to check behind me and post something from a cite that contradicts this. Because I don’t take kindly to accusations of lying or “misleading”. > [@](#): > > Here’s the funny part - **monstro** is all “doubtful” about the screams from Zimmerman. He doesn’t see the incongruity of the claim that Martin, while beating up Zimmerman, was screaming for help for 38 seconds. Because I don’t think Martin was on top for that long. There is another witness who saw the two of them separated, for one thing. And Witness 6 only saw a snapshot in time. If the two of them were wrestling, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that Martin would be on top in one instance and then be on the bottom in another. Being on top does not preclude someone from screaming, either. I don’t know why you are unable to imagine that Zimmerman may have been holding onto Martin and revealing his gun regardless of their respective positions. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1751 "2012-05-20T18:03:53Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > @Larry Mudd > > Thanks for the link. Wrong link, as it happens. Meant to be[this one.](http://www.clickorlando.com/news/Witnesses-shed-light-into-Trayvon-Martin-death/-/1637132/13475090/-/15bcvf6/-/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1752 "2012-05-20T18:07:38Z")
We are supposed to be doubtful that a black teenage boy says “I am begging you”. But we are supposed to believe that in his last moments the kid would utter lines straight out of a comic book? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1753 "2012-05-20T18:11:22Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > This isn’t rocket science. You must have seen abrasions before. Those are obviously abrasions in the photo of the back of Zimmerman’s head.. Imho, the physician who examined them first hand decided the call the something else. > [@Magiver](#): > > And the original attorney did not see a case. This was the result of a great deal of protests from the likes of Sharpton who have a habit of getting it wrong. Iirc, the original attorney said that there wasn’t enough evidence BEFORE the SPD investigation had been completed. So, it could also be that once the SPD investigation completed and had been turned over to the prosecutor that there was new information in the case than when the original guy made his determination. Just saying. The investigation by the SPD didn’t conclude until March 12th or 13th or so. I mean, your point could’ve played a role too. But we should at least consider the possibility that the subsequent findings of the investigation played a role in the prosecutor’s decision. Possibly we should even rule out the possibility that the subsequent findings of the investigation played a role in the prosecutor’s decision before we begin ascribing untoward motives to the prosecution. It’d be more convincing that way anyhow. imho ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1754 "2012-05-20T18:11:42Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > We are supposed to be doubtful that a black teenage boy says “I am begging you”. > > But we are supposed to believe that in his last moments the kid would utter lines straight out of a comic book? Shouts out “I am begging you”, not just says it. Yeah, right. And no, you should believe neither. If you don’t believe he was doing “comic book” lines, you shouldn’t believe the “I am begging you” crap either. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1755 "2012-05-20T18:13:24Z")
I wonder why Zimmerman’s statement is being treated like a confession, rather than like any other witness statement. Could it be that he incriminates himself in some major way? What is the legal basis for this action? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1756 "2012-05-20T18:17:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Shouts out “I am begging you”, not just says it. Yeah, right. > > And no, you should believe neither. If you don’t believe he was doing “comic book” lines, you shouldn’t believe the “I am begging you” crap either. What exactly makes “I am begging you” so implausible? You mentioned him being African American when you made that comment. What does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1757 "2012-05-20T18:18:58Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > He is the one who is playing up the severity of his injuries and using that to explain why he shot Martin. > You’da think the defense would have figured out that by hamming up his injuries, they would raise everyone’s expectations. > And yet the defense is still pushing the “serious injury” angle. It is to laugh. We really don’t know this to be true, do we? We know that this is how it’s playing out on the interwebs, but Z’s story may put more emphasis on other aspects of the story–like the declaration by M that Z was going to die tonight while M was reaching for Z’s gun. People on the interwebs don’t seem to be as enamored of that as the injuries on the back of Z’s head. But that seems a much stronger and less ambiguous case for self-defense than the head injuries. It’s possible that Z doesn’t view his case the same way that people on teh webz do. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1758 "2012-05-20T18:20:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But there has to be corresponding injuries on Z’s face, if that is the case. Certainly if Martin dug in his nails to get the leverage necessary to repeatedly move his head like that, there would fingernail scratch marks on his scalp and face. But there’s nothing like that there. Iirc, the nail scrapings from M showed only M’s blood there. for w/e that’s worth ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1759 "2012-05-20T18:21:31Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Shouts out “I am begging you”, not just says it. Yeah, right. > > And no, you should believe neither. If you don’t believe he was doing “comic book” lines, you shouldn’t believe the “I am begging you” crap either. Doesn’t this apply to you as well? “I’m begging you!” doesn’t strike me as that crazy out of the mouth of someone who is scared and out of control of his emotions. “You’re going to die tonight” sounds like a line pulled from a badly written spy movie. But I’m fine with discounting all the dialogue as crazy, apart from some convincing evidence. The question is, are you? And what does it say about your ability to view this unbiasedly that you are willing to accept that a modern teenage boy would use the outdated term “homie”, but “I’m begging you!” is such an unrealistic construction? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1760 "2012-05-20T18:25:41Z")
Or “okay, you got it” after having your heart exploded by a bullet. I can’t even believe the most hardcore Z-teamster can even believe Martin said that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1761 "2012-05-20T18:43:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Martin’s hand shows no such thing. They found a small scratch on a finger, below a knuckle. He could have acquired such an injury any time during that day. > > The one witness that originally reported seeing Martin going to town on Zimmerman is now on the record saying he isn’t sure what he saw. I keep waiting for you or someone else to comment about this backpedaling, and all I’m hearing is crickets. he saw one person on top of the other. It’s consistent with Zimmerman’s injuries. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=87) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=89)