# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 89
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1762 "2012-05-20T18:44:40Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Doesn’t this apply to you as well? > > “I’m begging you!” doesn’t strike me as that crazy out of the mouth of someone who is scared and out of control of his emotions. > > “You’re going to die tonight” sounds like a line pulled from a badly written spy movie. I wouldn’t be skeptical of a teen using standard English - but in context I wouldn’t give it _much_ more weight than if it were from an up-front Electronic Voice Phenomenon “expert.” ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1763 "2012-05-20T18:53:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > What exactly makes “I am begging you” so implausible? You mentioned him being African American when you made that comment. What does that have to do with anything? What exactly makes this dialog implausible: Martin: “What’s your problem, homie?” Zimmerman: “I don’t have a problem.” Martin: “You do now” (and punch) Zimmerman shoots Martin Martin: “It’s over. You got me.” falls dead. Is that implausible? Then “I am begging you” is doubly implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1764 "2012-05-20T18:54:13Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I wonder why Zimmerman’s statement is being treated like a confession, rather than like any other witness statement. Could it be that he incriminates himself in some major way? What is the legal basis for this action? It is treated this way in order for the prosecution not to have to release it to the public. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1765 "2012-05-20T18:55:23Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > The question is, are you? And what does it say about your ability to view this unbiasedly that you are willing to accept that a modern teenage boy would use the outdated term “homie”, but “I’m begging you!” is such an unrealistic construction? Can you point out the post in which I was willing to accept the “homie” dialog? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1766 "2012-05-20T19:16:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > What exactly makes this dialog implausible: > > Martin: “What’s your problem, homie?” > Zimmerman: “I don’t have a problem.” > Martin: “You do now” (and punch) > > Zimmerman shoots Martin > Martin: “It’s over. You got me.” falls dead. > > Is that implausible? Then “I am begging you” is doubly implausible. “Homie” is implausible because the term went out of style in the 90’s, probably when Martin was still in diapers. It would be like me, when I was his age, calling a stranger “jive turkey” or “daddio”. “You do now” isn’t implausible in the same way, but it sounds contrived. Like something out of bad movie script. I just learned that you are from the former USSR, so you’re probably not qualified to say what is plausible speech for an American teenaged black male. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1767 "2012-05-20T19:18:22Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is treated this way in order for the prosecution not to have to release it to the public. There has to be legal basis for this, though. Otherwise, the State could pick and choose which evidence to release to the public under the sunshine law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1768 "2012-05-20T19:20:42Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > I just learned that you are from the former USSR, so you’re probably not qualified to say what is plausible speech for an American teenaged black male. Yes of course. My last 32 years living in the US do not qualify me at all. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1769 "2012-05-20T19:21:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > There has to be legal basis for this, though. Otherwise, the State could pick and choose which evidence to release to the public under the sunshine law. “Legal basis” is calling it a confession. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1770 "2012-05-20T19:24:05Z")
> [@stw004](#): > > Since this is a speculation thread, I would like to know the answer to a question that is unanswerable to any degree of certainty. If George Zimmerman were to have NOT been carrying a fire arm that night would he have still persued Martin on foot? It seems quite likely since he did it before in 2003. > [@](#): > > It didn’t take long for Zimmerman to adjust to his new Florida home. In 2003, he gave chase when he saw a man steal a television from a supermarket, following the shoplifter until police could catch up. Zimmerman followed another man a year later, saying the man had spit on him. [http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-the-man-who-shot-trayvon-martin-profiled-by-family-and-neighbors.html](http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/03/21/george-zimmerman-the-man-who-shot-trayvon-martin-profiled-by-family-and-neighbors.html) Please note that Zimmerman was 19 at the time. Personally I think people who think firearms will make them brave are on a par with people who think that wearing a seatbelt will make them drive less cautiously. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1771 "2012-05-20T20:37:53Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > The witness who told police that he saw one guy on top of another, said the top guy was fighting the other guy “MMA style”. That is such a slang description, it is hard to know what exactly was meant by it, but one possibility in my mind is that Martin was not primarily using his fists to dominate Zimmerman, but may have been grinding Zimmerman’s head against the pavement as they wrestled (with the heels of his hand, his forearms, his elbows). The witness appears to have changed his description of what he saw from a “[ground and pound](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ground%20and%20pound)” to something else. It appears to me that this somewhat helps Zimmerman rather than incriminating him. If Zimmerman (or the witness) had claimed that Martin’s major attack was a ground-and-pound, one would expect more injuries to Martin’s hands from punching, or to his forearms or elbows (or Martin’s forehead - downward head butting is another useful tactic in situations such as a street-fight ground-and-pound, although illegal in most MMA competitions). Zimmerman’s claim as far as can be determined is that Martin did not ground-and-pound him, but repeatedly bashed his head against the ground from the top mount. This can be accomplished by grabbing the throat, ears, hair (given Zimmerman’s short hair, probably not in this case) or the collar. But the distinction between pinning and fighting “MMA style” is not useful in this context, because getting the top mount, i.e. pinning your opponent, is a key part of a successful striking attack in groundfighting. You need to be past the guard to control your opponent’s movements. You don’t need to be a skilled MMA proponent to bring it off - it is a common course of events as a follow up to a rush/sucker punch attack, in my experience. Hit the guy in the face, knock him down, and then jump on top and whale away. Martin apparently chose (if Zimmerman’s story is correct) to try to bash Zimmerman’s head. This is easier on the hands, but Martin’s other option (had he had any skill in groundfighting) is to work for a submission, or try to take the back. Either of those would have been better, because as it turns out, Zimmerman was able to access a weapon. And despite Martin’s superior position, one bullet outweighs a dozen top mounts in street fighting. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1772 "2012-05-20T20:49:42Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “Legal basis” is calling it a confession. Which implies Zimmerman confessed to the crime of murder or manslaughter. if thats not what he did, then it would seem like misuse of terms to call it a confession. Aren’t you a little bit curious as to why his statement has been kept secret, if its airtight? The defense hasn’t leaked it either, which you’d certainly expect if it helped Z. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1773 "2012-05-20T20:50:13Z")
Thanks, Larry Mudd. @monstro You wrote “How do you confusing punching MMA-style and pinning someone, I’d like to know.” I’m not an expert, but Mixed Martial Arts has a lot do with pinning people down in “submission”, and using your whole body to keep them down. It is interesting that the witness later changed his testimony it would appear, in part, because he didn’t recall hearing punching. Maybe that is what made him reconsider if he really had enough light to distinguish anything more than what he does recall with clarity: Martin on top, clearly dominating, in a struggle. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1774 "2012-05-20T20:57:21Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Which implies Zimmerman confessed to the crime of murder or manslaughter. if thats not what he did, then it would seem like misuse of terms to call it a confession. > > Aren’t you a little bit curious as to why his statement has been kept secret, if its airtight? The defense hasn’t leaked it either, which you’d certainly expect if it helped Z. It doesn’t imply anything about Zimmerman confessing to any crimes. The prosecutor is trying really hard not to release evidence. She said that, explicitly, in an interview a couple of days ago. She could not do anything about the evidence that was already released, due to Florida sunshine laws. But things that she can even marginally force under the exceptions to that law, like Zimmerman’s interrogation records and the telecom records, she’s not releasing. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1775 "2012-05-20T21:03:34Z")
Nothing unusual is being done in not releasing to the public George Zimmerman’s statements to the police. It is pre-existing state law that such statements can’t be released pre-trial, no matter who the defendant is. It doesn’t matter what the contents are, and by terming them “confessions”, I don’t think it prejudices the case against the defendant with an assumption that he made a confession of guilt. I don’t know the rationale for the law. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1776 "2012-05-20T21:05:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman’s claim as far as can be determined is that Martin did not ground-and-pound him, but repeatedly bashed his head against the ground from the top mount. This can be accomplished by grabbing the throat, ears, hair (given Zimmerman’s short hair, probably not in this case) or the collar. But there no evidence on Zimmerman or Martin that this is what happened. No bruising on Z’s neck suggestive of a throat grab (and he belted a scream for help through that?), and no flaming red ears in that pic. His clothes didnt look roughed up either in that surveillance vid. His shirt still looked tucked in. We can speculate all day on possible ways Zimmerman could have gotten his head bashed by Martin that fit with the physical evidence. But the real question is what did Zimmerman say took place. If he said Martin palmed his head between his two hands and bashed it on the sidewalk like a melon, then there should be some evidence beyond two weirdly placed cuts to show for that. Some busted capillaries where his fingers were pressing or something. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1777 "2012-05-20T21:24:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > It appears to me that this somewhat helps Zimmerman rather than incriminating him. If Zimmerman (or the witness) had claimed that Martin’s major attack was a ground-and-pound, one would expect more injuries to Martin’s hands from punching, or to his forearms or elbows (or Martin’s forehead - downward head butting is another useful tactic in situations such as a street-fight ground-and-pound, although illegal in most MMA competitions). I already addressed this in a previous post with comments on the coroner’s report. Martin died too quickly for his knuckles to show any bruising. > [@](#): > > Zimmerman’s claim as far as can be determined is that Martin did not ground-and-pound him, but repeatedly bashed his head against the ground from the top mount. This can be accomplished by grabbing the throat, ears, hair (given Zimmerman’s short hair, probably not in this case) or the collar. I personally interpreted the MMA comment as meaning that Martin was imitating what he saw on television. If Martin actually had any fighting skills, then Zimmerman would have been unconscious or dead by the time the police got there. ---
**Author:** ![camille](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/22d042/32.png) [@camille](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/camille)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1778 "2012-05-20T21:25:10Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Zimmerman’s claim as far as can be determined is that Martin did not ground-and-pound him, but repeatedly bashed his head against the ground from the top mount. This can be accomplished by grabbing the throat, ears, hair (given Zimmerman’s short hair, probably not in this case) or the collar. But Zimmerman doesn’t have the injuries that you would expect from a “repeated bashing”, either. Read the EMT report and next day medical report. No concussion. No LOC. Perfect Glasgow score and PMS. Nothing noted but the two lacerations on the back of his head. All of his injuries are the most consistent with a single punch, and a fall where he hit the back of his head. No signs of repeated bashing or any sort of “wailing” (or whaling) on his face. The new audio analysis also makes note of what is NOT heard in the final 45 seconds before the gunshot, and that is the indication of any type of fighting going on. Why would Zimmerman be screaming in that manner, at that point, for that type of scuffle (no head bashing or face pounding)? How plausible is that? The audio analysis stuff is tricky. I understand the quality is not the best, but there is still something to work with within the limitations. As **YWTF** noted earlier, that stretching out of the vowel sounds is more consistent with a teenager than a fully developed male. So far there have been experts that say it is Trayvon, and experts who say it is inconclusive. I wonder if the defense will find someone to match it to Zimmerman, using accepted procedures. But it will be used, and anyone who hears it and hears it as Trayvon - that will be very powerful for the prosecution. To shoot someone in the heart while he’s begging you to stop - I guess that’s why Corey went with murder 2. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1779 "2012-05-20T23:20:41Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > “Homie” is implausible because the term went out of style in the 90’s, probably when Martin was still in diapers. It would be like me, when I was his age, calling a stranger “jive turkey” or “daddio”. > > “You do now” isn’t implausible in the same way, but it sounds contrived. Like something out of bad movie script. > > I just learned that you are from the former USSR, so you’re probably not qualified to say what is plausible speech for an American teenaged black male. Out of curiosity, what term replaced “homie,” and, if used, would have rung true to you from today’s hip teen males? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1780 "2012-05-20T23:51:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Out of curiosity, what term replaced “homie,” and, if used, would have rung true to you from today’s hip teen males? I am not an urban teenager, but “dawg” would not stand out to me as so conspicuously out-of-date and -context. “Homie” is something sad old dudes like me say. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2012, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1781 "2012-05-20T23:58:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Out of curiosity, what term replaced “homie,” and, if used, would have rung true to you from today’s hip teen males? Dude. Bro. Man. Motherfucker. Even the “n-word”. But homie? Maybe if he was in his 30s, it wouldn’t sound so off-key. [being generous]Maybe Zimmerman simply heard him wrong.[/being generous] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=88) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=90)