# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 90
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1782 "2012-05-21T01:19:44Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Dude. > > Bro. > > Man. > > Motherfucker. > > Even the “n-word”. > > But homie? Maybe if he was in his 30s, it wouldn’t sound so off-key. > > [being generous]Maybe Zimmerman simply heard him wrong.[/being generous] Yes, but you hear “I’m begging you” all the time on the streets. It’s the latest “in” phrase, dawg. ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1783 "2012-05-21T01:22:16Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I already addressed this in a previous post with comments on the coroner’s report. Martin died too quickly for his knuckles to show any bruising. … ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1784 "2012-05-21T01:29:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, but you hear “I’m begging you” all the time on the streets. It’s the latest “in” phrase, dawg. Perhaps it’s because I can easily imagine my nephew saying “I’m begging you.” But I can’t imagine that he’d ever say “homie” in a non-sarcastic way. Of course, what do I know? I’m completely unfamiliar with the ways of black youth…not knowing any personally myself and never having been one either. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1785 "2012-05-21T01:34:13Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Perhaps it’s because I can easily imagine my nephew saying “I’m begging you.” Screaming it during a confrontation? Pull another one. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1786 "2012-05-21T01:34:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Yes, but you hear “I’m begging you” all the time on the streets. It’s the latest “in” phrase, dawg. Both of these attributions are equally dubious - but one is likely mere pareidolia from an unrelated party, and the other is almost certainly prevarication from Zimmerman himself. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1787 "2012-05-21T01:40:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Screaming it during a confrontation? Pull another one. You can be exasperated all you want. I’m not putting my money on ANYTHING in this case, but you certainly seem to have something riding on it. I hope it works out for you. I’m finding it hilarious that out of all the WTFs in this entire story, the words “I’m begging you” are what have your panties all jammed up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1788 "2012-05-21T01:47:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You can be exasperated all you want. I’m not putting my money on ANYTHING in this case, but you certainly seem to have something riding on it. I hope it works out for you. > > I’m finding it hilarious that out of all the WTFs in this entire story, the words “I’m begging you” are what have your panties all jammed up your ass. It was the ridiculous story that you cited where the audio “expert” dug a patently inapropos phrase out of tape noise and the WaPo swallows that load of crap whole. And you’re defending it. That’s the hilarious part. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1789 "2012-05-21T01:47:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Screaming it during a confrontation? Pull another one. You apparently can’t imagine an unarmed young man screaming “I’m begging you!” at an armed man. Is it because the young man in question is 17 years old and black, or does the phrase strike you as something no one would ever say? ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1790 "2012-05-21T02:05:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It was the ridiculous story that you cited where the audio “expert” dug a patently inapropos phrase out of tape noise and the WaPo swallows that load of crap whole. And you’re defending it. That’s the hilarious part. You know what’s the most hilarious part? That wasn’t my cite at all! I haven’t cared enough about the audio analysis to bother reading those articles, let alone post them. Keep posting, though. You’re making my evening. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1791 "2012-05-21T02:37:05Z")
Uh, yeah. That was me. I’m on record saying that I couldn’t make out any words in that recording. Not even help. It’s in the other 80+ page thread if you wanna dig through it. I just thought it was interesting. And WaPo didn’t swallow any crap. Read the headline. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1792 "2012-05-21T02:42:30Z")
**Honesty** , please expound. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1793 "2012-05-21T02:43:25Z")
I did read that article, and thought that first expert was badly overreaching. I highly doubt that either of them said “I’m begging you” and I think that if you listen to some ambiguous audio over and over again, you can become convinced that you’re hearing whatever it is your brain almost arbitrarily decides to hear. It’s a lot like song lyrics, where I’m sure we’ve all heard examples of people (or even ourselves) thinking they hear some pretty preposterous stuff, and being absolutely convinced that that’s what is being sung, even though those words don’t make a lick of sense. Another example would be those paranormal “researchers” who make audio recordings in old creaky houses, then make up all kinds of phrases the “ghosts” supposedly said whenever they hear a noise. “I’m begging you” could just as easily be “I’m letting you” or “I’m smelling poo” 😉 or any number of things. It’s not worth arguing about, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1794 "2012-05-21T03:52:35Z")
> [@PatriotX](#): > > Imho, the physician who examined them first hand decided the call the something else. > > Iirc, the original attorney said that there wasn’t enough evidence BEFORE the SPD investigation had been completed. > So, it could also be that once the SPD investigation completed and had been turned over to the prosecutor that there was new information in the case than when the original guy made his determination. > > Just saying. The investigation by the SPD didn’t conclude until March 12th or 13th or so. > > I mean, your point could’ve played a role too. > > But we should at least consider the possibility that the subsequent findings of the investigation played a role in the prosecutor’s decision. > > Possibly we should even rule out the possibility that the subsequent findings of the investigation played a role in the prosecutor’s decision before we begin ascribing untoward motives to the prosecution. > It’d be more convincing that way anyhow. imho According to the initial reporting in the news they stated that there was new information involved in the decision. So I would expect something we haven’t heard about yet. That’s why I preface everything with the disclaimer of “what we know NOW”. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1795 "2012-05-21T10:07:37Z")
I think it’s worth noting that there is a rap/hip-hop song called “Begging Lyrics” (sung by Logic) that prominently features the refrain “I’m beggin’ you” (it also has “homie” in the lyrics). I don’t know if it is possible to persuade a jury that individual words can be plucked out of a poor quality audio tape, but I don’t think it would be hard to establish that “I’m beggin you” is a phrase that’s plausibly in the vocabulary of black teens in Florida. Also, unless I’ve missed something, we still don’t know exactly what GZ himself claims happened in his face-to-face encounter with Trayvon Martin. All the versions of what happened to GZ come from people other than GZ. We have a few witnesses claiming to quote him directly that night — the police say they overheard GZ tell paramedics that “I was calling for help but nobody came”, and a resident who said that after the shooting, GZ remarked “He was beating me up, so I had to shoot him” – but we still haven’t heard from GZ directly or seen his statements to police that night. It is other people who have been speaking on his behalf, and details of their stories contradict each other, let alone contradict witness reports, which also contradict each other. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 10:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1796 "2012-05-21T10:20:34Z")
The test of GZ’s self-defense claim is not how badly he is injured, the amount of blood, the evidence of bruising, broken bones, etc. The test is whether a jury believes anybody in GZ’s shoes that night would have feared for his or her life. The fear can’t be rooted on the fact that Trayvon Martin was black and dressed in “thug-wear”, so wouldn’t lots of people be scared to death of him? It has to be that Trayvon Martin did one or more things sufficiently threatening that would make most anybody fear they were in mortal danger. If a jury believes that Trayvon Martin reached for GZ’s gun and made verbal threats to kill him, they could end up believing GZ killed Martin purely out of self-defense, not malice, even if they also think a broken nose and some cuts on the head aren’t life-threatening. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1797 "2012-05-21T11:41:44Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > But there no evidence on Zimmerman or Martin that this is what happened. Sure there is - Zimmerman had multiple lacerations to the back of his head. > [@](#): > > No bruising on Z’s neck suggestive of a throat grab (and he belted a scream for help through that?), and no flaming red ears in that pic. His clothes didnt look roughed up either in that surveillance vid. His shirt still looked tucked in. Since you didn’t seem to think Zimmerman’s broken nose showed up in the pictures, and it turned out he had one, I am wondering why you think you would be able to see inflamed ears in the same pictures. > [@](#): > > We can speculate all day on possible ways Zimmerman could have gotten his head bashed by Martin that fit with the physical evidence. But the real question is what did Zimmerman say took place. If he said Martin palmed his head between his two hands and bashed it on the sidewalk like a melon, then there should be some evidence beyond two weirdly placed cuts to show for that. Some busted capillaries where his fingers were pressing or something. Two things - [ol][li]It is not the case that no matter what Martin did, there would be marks conclusively showing that he did it. [\*]It is not always possible to recount with eidetic detail exactly where an assailant’s hands were placed while one is having one’s head slammed into the sidewalk. So if, when asked exactly where Martin grabbed him, Zimmerman responded “I don’t know” or even “I think he grabbed my neck” when it turns out Martin pushed on his face, that is not evidence that Zimmerman is lying about his story.[/ol][/li]Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1798 "2012-05-21T12:06:51Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > I think it’s worth noting that there is a rap/hip-hop song called “Begging Lyrics” (sung by Logic) that prominently features the refrain “I’m beggin’ you” (it also has “homie” in the lyrics). I don’t know if it is possible to persuade a jury that individual words can be plucked out of a poor quality audio tape, but I don’t think it would be hard to establish that “I’m beggin you” is a phrase that’s plausibly in the vocabulary of black teens in Florida. Since the song is about a guy begging his girlfriend for a hand job, it seems rather grotesque to suggest that Martin would use that phrase in that context. > [@](#): > > Put your loving hand out, baby > I`m begging > > (Begging) begging > Put your loving hand out, baby > (Begging) begging you > Put your loving hand out, baby > > Riding high when I was king > Played it hard and fast > Cause I had everything > You walked away, won me then > But easy come and easy go > And it would end > > (Begging) I`m begging you Won`t you give your hand out, baby > (Begging) begging > Put your loving hand out, baby > > I need you to understand > That I tried so hard > To be your man > The kind of man you want in the end > Only then can I begin to live again > > An empty shell > Used to be > Shadow of my life > Is hanging over me > > Broken man without a throne > Wont even stand the devils dance > To win my soul > > (Begging) begging you > > Won`t you give your hand out, baby > (Begging) begging you > Put your loving hand out, baby > > I`m fighting hard > To hold my own > No, I just cant make it > All alone > > I`m holdin on I can`t fall back > Now that big brass ring > Is a shade of black > > (Begging) I`m begging you Won`t you give your hand out, baby > (Begging) begging > Put your loving hand out, baby > > (Begging) begging you ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1799 "2012-05-21T12:07:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Since you didn’t seem to think Zimmerman’s broken nose showed up in the pictures, and it turned out he had one, I am wondering why you think you would be able to see inflamed ears in the same pictures. Do you? Go on ahead and tell me if it looks like his ears have extensive capillary breaks. > [@](#): > > So if, when asked exactly where Martin grabbed him, Zimmerman responded “I don’t know” or even “I think he grabbed my neck” when it turns out Martin pushed on his face, that is not evidence that Zimmerman is lying about his story.[/list] > Regards, > Shodan Yes it is. One discrepancy here or there is not a slam dunk indictment against his credibility, but these things add up. If he claims with confidence that Martin grabbed his head with his hands, then the prosecution can throw that into question by pointing out what I have. A throat grab is even more problematic, if he was supposedly screaming for help. It is not necessary that they prove he’s a liar; all they have to do is make the jury regard his story of events with strong skepticism. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1800 "2012-05-21T12:50:33Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Do you? Go on ahead and tell me if it looks like his ears have extensive capillary breaks. I don’t think this is possible from a photograph of this nature. But first don’t you have to show that grabbing an ear always or usually produces extensive capillary breaks? > [@](#): > > It is not necessary that they prove he’s a liar; all they have to do is make the jury regard his story of events with strong skepticism. It’s too bad that this has to be pointed out yet again, but you are incorrect. The jury has to be convinced of the key elements of second-degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt in order to convict. Looking at his story of events with strong skepticism is not enough. This keeps getting said, and it also keeps getting ignored. The prosecution has to prove guilt. Zimmerman does **not** have to prove innocence. I have no hopes that pointing it out will do any good this time either - we will go back to the “that’s just my opinion” crap. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1801 "2012-05-21T12:58:22Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > It is not necessary that they prove he’s a liar; all they have to do is make the jury regard his story of events with strong skepticism. No, they have to prove he’s a liar. Strong skepticism is not enough to convict. “Beyond a reasonable doubt” means that the prosecution must prove that all reasonable scenarios, except the scenario of guilt, are eliminated. A jury that merely has strong skepticism of Zimmerman’s claim, but does not have proof he’s a liar, cannot convict him. A judge who sees that the prosecution has not offered any evidence that would prove he’s a liar cannot even let the jury decide. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=89) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=91)