# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1842 "2012-05-21T20:05:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m totally serious. Michigan started it by referencing a popular song in #1794 with that phrase. It turned out it was begging for a handjob. If you want to claim that that phrase is in popular culture, then you need to find a reference that makes sense in this context or simply drop the claim that it was popular vernacular. OK, forget popular culture. Why couldn’t a teenager say it because it’s a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something? ---
**Author:** ![BottledBlondJeanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/0ea827/32.png) [@BottledBlondJeanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BottledBlondJeanie)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1843 "2012-05-21T20:06:34Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > (bolding mine) > Confrontation is initiating the conflict. Look up the definition of [confront](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/confront). No. This is incorrect as it applies to the legal standard. In one of these threads I dug up some relevant citations. I’ll try to find them if you’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1844 "2012-05-21T20:14:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > OK, forget popular culture. > > Why couldn’t a teenager say it because it’s a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something? Sure he could. He also could have said: “Avast, dear sir, I exhort you to hearken to my supplication, forsooth!”. That is also a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something. But I bet he didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1845 "2012-05-21T20:18:38Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > And? This evidence _also_ supports the narrative that Zimmerman pursued Martin. The dispatcher says he’ll tell the officers to meet him near the mailboxes (closest given landmark to Zimmerman’s current location at the time,) and Zimmerman indicated that he planned to be somewhere else. (“Actually, can you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at?”) > > The problem with _Martin’s_ phone call is that it is very hard to explain in the context of Zimmerman’s account of what happened. The call is logged as ending at 7:16. (Cell log only has by-minute granularity, so this means during the minute between 7:16 and 7:17.) The first 911 call came in at 7:16:10. We know that the call was interrupted by the scuffle. > > Zimmerman’s account of events is very hard to reconcile with this fact. You don’t start a fist fight in the middle of a phone conversation, that’s banana oil. According to the girlfriend, Martin ran until he was out of breath, yet Zimmerman caught up to Martin (miraculously, considering the recorded 911 dispatch, in which Zimmerman’s original and brief heavy breathing, after exiting his vehicle, slowed down, and the wind whistling past his cellphone ceased when the dispatcher suggested he not follow the suspect, and there no indication Zimmerman ever ran again) The 911 call is recorded. You have to take the girlfriend’s word for everything. ---
**Author:** ![enomaj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/59ef9b/32.png) [@enomaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enomaj)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1846 "2012-05-21T20:20:15Z")
Apparently, Trayvon was supposed to take his bullet like Denzel took his lashes. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1847 "2012-05-21T20:28:15Z")
> [@enomaj](#): > > Apparently, Trayvon was supposed to take his bullet like Denzel took his lashes. _crying a single tear_ ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1848 "2012-05-21T20:28:33Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure he could. He also could have said: “Avast, dear sir, I exhort you to hearken to my supplication, forsooth!”. That is also a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something. But I bet he didn’t. Just speculating, but perhaps the exchange went something like this: ZIMMERMAN: Nay, as he dare. I will bite my thumb at him; which is a disgrace to him, if he may bear it. MARTIN Do you bite your thumb at me, sir? ZIMMERMAN I do bite my thumb, sir. MARTIN Do you bite your thumb at me, sir? ZIMMERMAN No, sir, I do not bite my thumb at you, sir, but I bite my thumb, sir. MARTIN Do you quarrel, sir? ZIMMERMAN Quarrel sir! no, sir. MARTIN Draw, if you be a man! ZIMMERMAN Villain, thou diest! MARTIN What, ho? Help, help, help! ZIMMERMAN How now, a rat? Dead for a ducat, dead! MARTIN O, I am slain! ZIMMERMAN: I am maim’d for ever. Help, ho! murder! murder! ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1849 "2012-05-21T20:28:45Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I’m totally serious. Michigan started it by referencing a popular song in #1794 with that phrase. It turned out it was begging for a handjob. If you want to claim that that phrase is in popular culture, then you need to find a reference that makes sense in this context or simply drop the claim that it was popular vernacular. In a thread/topic filled with biased people who make totally ludicrous claims and/or assumptions in order to support their position, this really wins the prize for blatant denial of reality in service of your opinion. > **[Google](https://www.google.com/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=I'm+begging+you&oq=I'm+begging+you&aq=f&aqi=g4&aql=1&gs_l=hp.3..0l4.445.1784.0.1940.15.12.0.0.0.0.217.1684.1j10j1.12.0.ekh.1.0.0.5c_x6ucRppk&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=e98779a6a837fd4e&biw=1646&bih=852)** > > Search the world's information, including webpages, images, videos and more. Google has many special features to help you find exactly what you're looking for. It is a common phrase that’s used in all sorts of contexts - TV shows, movies, newspaper headlines, blogs, video games, etc. Asking for a reference is like asking for a reference for the phrase “Nice to meet you!” ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1850 "2012-05-21T20:29:46Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure he could. He also could have said: “Avast, dear sir, I exhort you to hearken to my supplication, forsooth!”. That is also a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something. But I bet he didn’t. I bet he didn’t say that either. If anything, I bet it was more along the lines of … oh, I don’t know … shit, let’s say something common like, “I’m begging you.” Nah, crazy I know. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1851 "2012-05-21T20:32:44Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Actually, the forensic evidence shows just one small scratch below the knuckle on Martin’s left ring finger. This does not suggest a continuous attack does it? If Martin did more than punch Zimmerman once, why doesn’t the forensic evidence show any more indication on Martin’s body? I think you are a little too certain about what the forensic evidence “suggests” imho. I already pointed out that the ME didn’t check for subcutaneous capillary damage, so there isn’t any proof that Martin didn’t pound on Zimmerman. The autopsy started at 10:30AM. At that point Tracy Martin hadn’t identified the body and the police probably thought is was an open and shut self-defense case. It they had known that it was a 2nd Degree murder case, they would have asked for a more through exam. Even on a manslaughter charge, they probably should have asked for a closer exam before the body was released. If Corey is serious about winning this case, I wouldn’t be surprised if she asks for Martin’s corpse to be exhumed and reexamined. Of course this depends on Zimmerman’s statement. If he claimed that Martin only punched him once, then there wouldn’t be a claim for the state to falsify. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1852 "2012-05-21T20:33:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Sure he could. He also could have said: “Avast, dear sir, I exhort you to hearken to my supplication, forsooth!”. That is also a sentence composed of English words, meaning that the speaker is entreating the object of his speech not to do something. But I bet he didn’t. Wow. Well, **Terr** , if you can’t find a principled distinction between those two sentences on your own, I doubt very much my assistance will help clear things up. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1853 "2012-05-21T20:38:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Wow. > > Well, **Terr** , if you can’t find a principled distinction between those two sentences on your own, I doubt very much my assistance will help clear things up. It is ridiculous to think that, in a confrontation, a 17-year-old would yell (not just say it, but yell) “I am begging you” at someone. Or a 30-year-old for that matter. It’s about as likely to have been uttered as the phrase I quoted above. If you can’t see that, I doubt very much anything will help clear things up for you. ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1854 "2012-05-21T20:46:10Z")
“Don’t kill me! … please! … I am begging you!” That sounds unreasonable to you guys? Really? If someone is pleading for their life? You’ve never seen anything like this on TV or in the movies? Come on. This is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1855 "2012-05-21T20:53:24Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is ridiculous to think that, in a confrontation, a 17-year-old would yell (not just say it, but yell) “I am begging you” at someone. Or a 30-year-old for that matter. It’s about as likely to have been uttered as the phrase I quoted above. If you can’t see that, I doubt very much anything will help clear things up for you. Is English not your first language or something? This is just nuts. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1856 "2012-05-21T21:00:12Z")
From Deedee’s interview; “He was telling me, like that man was watching him. He going to start walking, and the phone hung up, and I called him up again.” The girl said. Apparently the cellphone connection was bad, according to DeeDee, and the couple were repeatedly disconnected. But at one point Martin told her a white man was sitting in a car, watching him. Wouldn’t these disconnections be listed as separate calls? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1857 "2012-05-21T21:03:31Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Is English not your first language or something? Where is that lightbulb smilie? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1858 "2012-05-21T21:31:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is ridiculous to think that, in a confrontation, a 17-year-old would yell (not just say it, but yell) “I am begging you” at someone. Or a 30-year-old for that matter. It’s about as likely to have been uttered as the phrase I quoted above. If you can’t see that, I doubt very much anything will help clear things up for you. No, it’s not. “Don’t shoot… Don’t … I’m begging you!” This alone, if the jury had evidence to allow them to conclude that Zimmerman had Martin at gunpoint, would probably support the ill intent required for second degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1859 "2012-05-21T21:50:09Z")
> [@camille](#): > > Maybe so, but if you recall, that investigator also said he didn’t know about Zimmerman’s medical records when queried by O’Mara, yet according to the document dump, Detective Serino obtained and filed that report in March. What one investigator claims knowledge of is not necessarily the sum knowledge of the prosecution’s team. Serino is the local police, and was not the prosecution investigator. [BTW and FTR, I also agree that it’s ludicrous to think that a guy with a NO LIMIT NIGGA persona is likely to say “I am begging you” in the situation described. Not impossible, of course, and if this was a legitimate reason to believe that he said it, I don’t think you can just dismiss it. But since the “expert”'s basis for this claim is very shaky to begin with, this adds reason to dismiss it.] ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1860 "2012-05-21T21:52:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It is ridiculous to think that, in a confrontation, a 17-year-old would yell (not just say it, but yell) “I am begging you” at someone. It’s really not. It’s a standard English phrase, to the point of cliché. Look: ["Help, I’m begging you!"](https://www.google.ca/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=1G1LENP_ENCA478&q=%22Help+me%2C+I'm+begging+you%22&oq=%22Help+me%2C+I'm+begging+you%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_l=igoogle.3...892.5094.0.5291.26.17.0.9.0.0.148.1251.13j4.17.0...0.0.OCdkms9hrQU#hl=en&safe=active&rlz=1G1LENP_ENCA478&sclient=psy-ab&q=%22Help%2C+I'm+begging+you%22&oq=%22Help%2C+I'm+begging+you%22&aq=f&aqi=g-bK1&aql=&gs_l=serp.3..0i8i30.1474180.1474538.0.1476611.3.3.0.0.0.1.189.455.0j3.3.0...0.0.H42p0V-ciqg&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=260dedab685f2a9a&biw=1440&bih=799)A quarter of million results for the exact phrase, with even distribution across ages and subcultures. It is absurd to protest that a teenager simply _wouldn’t say that_ under the circumstances. If you want to argue that the phrase doesn’t appear in the recording, that’s nothing altogether. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1861 "2012-05-21T21:59:33Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > [BTW and FTR, I also agree that it’s ludicrous to think that a guy with a NO LIMIT NIGGA persona is likely to say “I am begging you” in the situation described. Not impossible, of course, and if this was a legitimate reason to believe that he said it, I don’t think you can just dismiss it. But since the “expert”'s basis for this claim is very shaky to begin with, this adds reason to dismiss it.] I think it’s ludicrous to think that a guy with a user-name such as “Fotheringay-Phipps” would have a frame of reference to suss out what “NO LIMIT NIGGA” refers to … and yet, there it is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=94)