# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1922 "2012-05-22T14:04:31Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > thanks again, Bricker, for the explanation. And in turn, thank you for what I found to be a very insightful report on why you’re feeling what you’re feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1923 "2012-05-22T14:09:09Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is so typical that someone who is losing an argument will accuse the other person of being a racist. I point out that Trayvon doesn’t speak Standard English based on his twitter feed and you say that other people in his family speak Standard English. I think the fact that he was suspended three time from school indicate that he was having difficulties. You apparently aren’t familiar with idea that all the children in the same family don’t turn out the same. I’m no expert on Twitter. But isn’t non-standard English of some variety or other a staple of Twitter? And given that Twitter limits messages to some small character count (140?) can we really analogize language skills in spoken life to language skills exhibited on Twitter? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1924 "2012-05-22T14:13:53Z")
Here’s what I see in this thread. I see **JoelUpChurch** , who consistently ignores evidence that Zimmerman might be guilty unless it’s rock-solid, but gleefully accepts the slightest gossamer of evidence impugning Martin. And I see **Fear Itself** , who consistently ignores evidence that Zimmerman might be legally blameless unless it’s rock-solid, but gleefully accepts the slightest gossamer of evidence impugning Zimmerman. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1925 "2012-05-22T14:19:08Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > @Joel, > > Others have eloquently stated what needs to be said about “I’m begging you”, so I’m not going to extend the argument. With regard to TalkLeft, that is a blog run, as you noted, by a defense lawyer. When eyewitness testimony supports the defense point of view, the author of that blog doesn’t argue against it. You obviously didn’t read her blog very carefully. She made detailed comparisons based on what witnesses said on the 911 recordings and the statements they made later and changes and accumulations of details and how their memories are altered based on later data they were exposed to. Her general conclusions are that the only reliable statements are the contemporaneous statement to 911 operator. She also made some pointed remarks about the police officers who apparently couldn’t remember if Martin was wearing shorts or trousers. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1926 "2012-05-22T14:19:53Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I point out that Trayvon doesn’t speak Standard English based on his twitter feed and you say that other people in his family speak Standard English. Do you have some inkling of how the mechanism of language acquisition works? Do you imagine that txtspeak is the cradle language of these kids, and they are \*unable \*to speak or understand standard English? Hell, I’m friends with the managing broker of the rental division of my company, and her twitter feed is full of that stuff, because she’s still in her twenties and it seems normal to her in this context. Yet she still writes perfectly fine business letters. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1927 "2012-05-22T14:22:55Z")
One thing that repeatedly occurs and yet overlooked in punditry about this case, even by defenders of “Stand Your Ground”, is whether Martin had a right to punch a strange “creepy crazy” man who followed him in the dark not once but twice. If Martin was only steps from the condo where he was staying, if Zimmerman pursued him there, would Martin have been legally entitled to throw a punch? If not, it is true that hearing Martin say “get off, get off” indicates Zimmerman laid hands on Martin, would he then have been legally entitled to resort to strong phyiscal force to disable Zimmerman from acting further against him? Who had the primary benefit here of Florida’s SYG statute? If Martin had it, can it also be true that GZ had a legal right to “stand his ground” once the altercation began – or did he lose that right by becoming the pursuer of Martin? It seems to me I have a legal right to walk down a public sidewalk. I don’t have the legal right to menace other pedestrians on that same sidewalk. ---
**Author:** ![michigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e7dd6/32.png) [@michigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/michigan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1928 "2012-05-22T14:29:06Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You obviously didn’t read her blog very carefully. I’ve read it enough to lose all respect for it as a source of clear-headed information about this case. But the blogger isn’t making any pretense about being fair-minded. The blog is proudly a pro-defense blog. People interested in shoring up arguments for Zimmerman’s acquittal or best defense tactics to employ will find it very valuable. The rest of us, more interested in simply understanding the overall situation truthfully, not. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1929 "2012-05-22T14:29:40Z")
[Another wonderful example](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/22/11805562-grandmother-charged-with-murder-after-allegedly-shooting-grandson-eight-times?lite) of someone standing her ground. She was “afraid” so she shot her own grandson eight times. She was so afraid of him that she plugged him while he was on the phone with 911. Aren’t guns and these wonderful laws written by the wonderful folks at NRA and ALEC just so peachy keen? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1930 "2012-05-22T14:33:09Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > It is so typical that someone who is losing an argument will accuse the other person of being a racist. I point out that Trayvon doesn’t speak Standard English based on his twitter feed and you say that other people in his family speak Standard English. I think the fact that he was suspended three time from school indicate that he was having difficulties. You apparently aren’t familiar with idea that all the children in the same family don’t turn out the same. Chrissakes, Sarah Palin doesn’t speak Standard English based on her Twitter feed. You went out of your way to mention the millions of stupid black kids, lamenting how they’re going to find a job if they can’t even read … like any of that has shit to do with Martin. You painted Martin as a half-illiterate simply because he’s black. How is that not a racist point of view? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1931 "2012-05-22T14:46:50Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [Another wonderful example](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/22/11805562-grandmother-charged-with-murder-after-allegedly-shooting-grandson-eight-times?lite) of someone standing her ground. She was “afraid” so she shot her own grandson eight times. She was so afraid of him that she plugged him while he was on the phone with 911. Aren’t guns and these wonderful laws written by the wonderful folks at NRA and ALEC just so peachy keen? There is no mention of SYG in the article. She’s being charged with “open murder”, which means she has the possibility of First Degree. Not really sure what your point is. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1932 "2012-05-22T14:54:55Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > One thing that repeatedly occurs and yet overlooked in punditry about this case, even by defenders of “Stand Your Ground”, is whether Martin had a right to punch a strange “creepy crazy” man who followed him in the dark not once but twice. > > If Martin was only steps from the condo where he was staying, if Zimmerman pursued him there, would Martin have been legally entitled to throw a punch? No. That is, assuming “pursued” is synonymous with “followed.” If Zimmerman followed Martin to steps away from his condo, approached him and asked, “What are you doing here?” and Martin responded by punching Zimmerman, then Martin is guilty of a battery and Zimmerman is guilty of nothing. But maybe you mean pursued in some other way. For example, if Zimmerman made some threat to Martin as he followed him: “Stop, or I’ll kick your ass!” then Martin is the victim of an assault, and the equation changes. > [@](#): > > If not, it is true that hearing Martin say “get off, get off” indicates Zimmerman laid hands on Martin, would he then have been legally entitled to resort to strong phyiscal force to disable Zimmerman from acting further against him? Maybe. The problem is that we don’t know what, if anything, preceded the “Get off, get off.” Certainly if it referred to Zimmerman grabbing hold of Martin, and that was the first physical aspect of the encounter, it means Martin was entitled to defend himself. > [@](#): > > Who had the primary benefit here of Florida’s SYG statute? If Martin had it, can it also be true that GZ had a legal right to “stand his ground” once the altercation began – or did he lose that right by becoming the pursuer of Martin? It seems to me I have a legal right to walk down a public sidewalk. I don’t have the legal right to menace other pedestrians on that same sidewalk. Right. But Zimmerman claims he merely spoke to Martin, and didn’t menace him. Zimmerman is right that merely approaching someone to speak to him, with no threat, is not an act of menacing. Of course I don’t know if Zimmerman is telling the truth. But in order to convict him, we can’t simply suspect he might be lying. To convict him, the finder of fact needs specific evidence to conclude otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1933 "2012-05-22T15:01:53Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > [Another wonderful example](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/05/22/11805562-grandmother-charged-with-murder-after-allegedly-shooting-grandson-eight-times?lite) of someone standing her ground. She was “afraid” so she shot her own grandson eight times. She was so afraid of him that she plugged him while he was on the phone with 911. Aren’t guns and these wonderful laws written by the wonderful folks at NRA and ALEC just so peachy keen? 1. Michigan. not Florida. No dismissal before trial in Michigan. 2. Shot eight times – four times before he called police and four after the call began. Going to be tough for her to rely on self-defense with those facts. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1934 "2012-05-22T15:11:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > She made detailed comparisons based on what witnesses said on the 911 recordings and the statements they made later and changes and accumulations of details and how their memories are altered based on later data they were exposed to. Since we’re on the subject, I’m curious to know what you think about the discrepancies between Zimmerman’s contemporaneous account of Martin’s behaviour to police dispatch (where Martin remained across the way and fled when he saw that he was being watched) and the accounts he gave later in the investigation, (where Martin approached his truck and circled it menacingly, prompting him be fearful enough to make sure the door was secure.) What explains this best?[ol][_]This actually happened, but Zimmerman simply didn’t think it was worth mentioning to police dispatch at the time.[_]This is plausibly explained by the subtle mutability of memory.[\*]Zimmerman invented this detail after the fact, in order to support his claim of self-defense.[/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1935 "2012-05-22T15:29:07Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You painted Martin as a half-illiterate simply because he’s black. How is that not a racist point of view? Because the idea that Martin was half-illiterate due to his race is something you said, not **Joel**. > [@michigan](#): > > One thing that repeatedly occurs and yet overlooked in punditry about this case, even by defenders of “Stand Your Ground”, is whether Martin had a right to punch a strange “creepy crazy” man who followed him in the dark not once but twice. This has not been overlooked; I have addressed it several times. No, Martin did not have the right to punch Zimmerman if all Zimmerman did was follow and attempt to question him. SYG has nothing to do with it, since SYG has only to do with situations of self-defense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1936 "2012-05-22T15:29:25Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > Are you seriously trying to dispute, that the person that got out of his vehicle and trailed someone who was just walking home is the one that DID NOT initiate the situation? Seriously? Yes, I’ll say just that. you’re using butterfly logic. The “situation” was a knock down beating that lead to a fatal shooting. A did not cause B. As of NOW, it appears that Martin initiated contact with Zimmerman based on the phone conversation. Prior to that, Zimmerman was just keeping him within eyesight. He was doing nothing wrong. The conversation lead to a physical confrontation. If Martin struck Zimmerman down and wailed on him then the confrontation is his fault. If Zimmerman struck or touched Martin then it’s his fault. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1937 "2012-05-22T15:31:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no mention of SYG in the article. She’s being charged with “open murder”, which means she has the possibility of First Degree. Not really sure what your point is. The point is that another teen is dead because some halfwit with a gun decided to shoot it. Since she said that she was “afraid”, perhaps she thought she could pull the same defense as what Zimmerman is doing. How many people have to get shot before right wingers realize that guns are the problem? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1938 "2012-05-22T15:32:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Really good post. > > And I agree. I think the problem is Florida’s law. You need to be clearer about how the SYG ground law would have actually changed the result. Zimmerman claims that Martin knocked him down and retreating wasn’t an option. Zimmerman wasn’t committing a crime under the old law by leaving his truck. Stupid yes, but not a crime. If we were talking about a case where Martin tried to assault Zimmerman and Zimmerman had an opportunity to retreat, that would be different , but that isn’t the facts we are dealing with. It Zimmerman didn’t actually do what he claimed, then that is different, but the State would still have the burden of proof. It is possible that Zimmerman may avoid civil immunity under SYG, but I don’t see how that would make Martin any less dead. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1939 "2012-05-22T15:36:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no mention of SYG in the article. She’s being charged with “open murder”, which means she has the possibility of First Degree. Not really sure what your point is. Probably the same point of all his other posts in this thread, random spewing of liberal propaganda with no basis in fact, with poor or no meaningful analysis, and often times seemingly unrelated to the thread itself. In short **BobLibDem** continues to make the worst posts in this thread, by far. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1940 "2012-05-22T15:38:41Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > This has not been overlooked; I have addressed it several times. No, Martin did not have the right to punch Zimmerman if all Zimmerman did was follow and attempt to question him. SYG has nothing to do with it, since SYG has only to do with situations of self-defense. > > Regards, > Shodan I will say that if Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin punched him in the face for no reason, and that was **all** that ever happened, and Zimmerman filed a police report against Martin that most likely Martin wouldn’t end up convicted of assault. I think any conflict between two people that happens without direct witnesses it will be very difficult to get a conviction. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1941 "2012-05-22T15:39:44Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > The point is that another teen is dead because some halfwit with a gun decided to shoot it. Since she said that she was “afraid”, perhaps she thought she could pull the same defense as what Zimmerman is doing. How many people have to get shot before right wingers realize that guns are the problem? There is no number. Guns aren’t the problem. Further, this isn’t a gun control thread, and we’ve had enough threads on the idiocy of anti-gun types in GD and elsewhere that there is no reason to turn this into a gun control thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=98)