# Martin/Zimmerman: humble opinions and speculation thread **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 18, 2012, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125 "2012-04-18T04:41:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 98
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1942 "2012-05-22T15:48:06Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I will say that if Zimmerman approached Martin and Martin punched him in the face for no reason, and that was **all** that ever happened, and Zimmerman filed a police report against Martin that most likely Martin wouldn’t end up convicted of assault. I think any conflict between two people that happens without direct witnesses it will be very difficult to get a conviction. I don’t disagree, but what I think **michigan** and I were discussing was not could there be a conviction under the circumstances you describe, but should there be one. I.e. would Martin have been justified in punching someone who was following him and asking him questions. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1943 "2012-05-22T16:10:49Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > What has been socially difficult is the “hah-hah” triumphalism of many defenders of George Zimmerman at the idea that he will be acquitted. Nobody on this site has engaged in a “hah-hah” mentality regarding Zimmerman. He is not being defended as an individual by anybody. The people defending him have merely pointed out the legal aspect of the case based on the current level of information. That will change as the information changes. I don’t think anybody gives a fuck about Zimmerman beyond the legal aspect. It would be great to have a witness who saw the confrontation from the beginning. But as it stands now, the physical evidence is consistent with Zimmerman’s story. Absent that, it’s going to be difficult convict him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1944 "2012-05-22T16:43:01Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You need to be clearer about how the SYG ground law would have actually changed the result. Zimmerman claims that Martin knocked him down and retreating wasn’t an option. Zimmerman wasn’t committing a crime under the old law by leaving his truck. Stupid yes, but not a crime. If we were talking about a case where Martin tried to assault Zimmerman and Zimmerman had an opportunity to retreat, that would be different , but that isn’t the facts we are dealing with. It Zimmerman didn’t actually do what he claimed, then that is different, but the State would still have the burden of proof. > > It is possible that Zimmerman may avoid civil immunity under SYG, but I don’t see how that would make Martin any less dead. There are two answers. First, from a perception and political reality standpoint, the police would have certainly charged Zimmerman if the SYG law did not exist, because those defenses are affirmative defenses to be raised at trial. This would have defused the wave of protests from people who became convinced that there was a cover-up, or simply a lack of care as to the death of a black teenager. Secondly, from a punishment perspective. In a traditional self-defense context, the burden falls on Zimmerman to prove that he was entitled to self-defense. This is obviously a lower burden for the state to secure a conviction. Under this framework, the state has merely to show that Zimmerman killed Martin, and then the burden falls to Zimmerman to show that he could not have retreated. I think most of the emotion about criminal procedure and this cases arises from people who can’t believe that this ISN’T how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1945 "2012-05-22T16:46:05Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > You painted Martin as a half-illiterate simply because he’s black. How is that not a racist point of view? > [@Shodan](#): > > Because the idea that Martin was half-illiterate due to his race is something you said, not **Joel**. Really? > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > What is your proof that Trayvon could actually communicate in Basic Standard English? There are millions of black teenagers that can’t. He is basically saying this: there are millions of black teenagers who can’t speak Basic Standard English (a retarded claim to begin with). Trayvon is black. Where is the proof that he isn’t like all the other illiterate black people. But I’m race-baiting for pointing that out, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1946 "2012-05-22T16:50:12Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > @Terr, > > Way back there yesterday you asked me to cite where Trayvon’s friend provided evidence that GZ acted with malice. She described GZ as sounding angry when he asked “What are you doing here?”, and that it was Trayvon’s voice subsequently saying “Get off, get off.” Taken alone, none of her statements would probably be enough to persuade a jury that GZ acted in malice, but they might add to the cumulative weight of other evidence and help ultimately persuade a jury that GZ, step by step, was acting maliciously toward the “criminal” he mistakenly believed Trayvon Martin was, that culminated in his killing Trayvon Martin. That’s about as thin as it can possibly get. Hey, Trayvon thought Zimmerman was “crazy and creepy”. Does that show that he acted “in malice” against Zimmerman? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1947 "2012-05-22T16:50:57Z")
I am shocked–shocked, I say–that people are letting racial stereotypes interfere with how they perceive this case. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1948 "2012-05-22T16:58:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Well, it’s possible. In general, entrance wounds bleed very little compared to exit wounds, so I wouldn’t say it’s proof beyond a reasonable doubt, but it can be cumulative evidence that Martin had stepped back or was retreating. Martin was wearing a hoodie over a tshirt. Most of the blood that was emitted from the wound would have been caught by the two barriers. Also, the autopsy found a lot of blood pooled in the body, around the lungs, thus not much was bleeding out. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1949 "2012-05-22T17:05:02Z")
> [@camille](#): > > That doesn’t make sense. You say they had his statements to see the inconsistencies, so why wouldn’t they have whatever else the Sanford PD had on file, including the medical report? You think they said, “Just give us his statements, we don’t care about anything else”? They looked for what they needed to indict. The statements are the richest source. > [@](#): > > And as far as the investigator, he didn’t say “we” don’t know, he said “I” don’t know. I’m pretty sure that’s allowable - maybe a lawyer reading this can answer? I think if they knew, then he knew. There were not many investigators on this case. > [@Bricker](#): > > I think the problem is Florida’s law. > > I’m horrified at the needless death of a teenager. And I can’t understand either why there’s a triumphant tone associated with Zimmerman’s seeming legal immunity – it results from a law that’s foolish, shortsighted, and upends ordinary criminal procedure. I disagree. For a normal middle class person, being indicted for murder is an extremely severe punishment of its own, even if they beat the rap. The law is a very justified attempt to shield people from being victimized twice. It’s likely that these laws will be rolled back in the aftermath of this incident, and that’s a tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1950 "2012-05-22T17:16:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s fine. As long as the reader understands you’re sharing your view of morality and not a statement about the extant criminal law and procedure governing this case. > > For what it’s worth, I completely disagree with your opinion, but that’s un utterly unresolvable conflict. I am only happy that the people of Alaska, Arizona, Vermont and Wyoming, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wisconsin, Wyoming, Alabama, and Connecticut think your view is utterly wrong. While I admire your stamina in these many threads, I do hope you copy and pasted that list. I was unaware that referendums were held in the aforementioned states and the residents had unanimously approved the CCW statutes. Florida has what I consider to be rather liberal CCW laws. I wonder if in other jurisdictions, Zimmerman’s past would have contained too many red flags to be granted a permit. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1951 "2012-05-22T17:41:52Z")
> [@michigan](#): > > It seems possible to me that Martin could have disengaged and was retreating from his straddle, and that GZ reached forward with the gun to close the distance. I can think of all kinds of scenarios that favor both Martin and Zimmerman but they’re all lacking some critical piece of information. While in the truck both M & Z eye each other suspiciously. Martin takes the sidewalk behind the houses and Zimmerman follows. At some point it’s a run/jog for both of them. This was backed up by someone seeing 2 people run/jog passed a window. There was a brief conversation between M&Z with what was interpreted as a struggle and then the line disconnects. Martin asked why Zimmerman is following him and Zimmerman asks Martin what he’s doing there. The last words heard were “get off, get off” and presumed to be Martin’s voice by his girlfriend. Someone heard loud raised voices outside their house. At this point we don’t know if the conversation heard on the phone was the same one heard by the witness. A fight ensues but the beginning is not witnessed. All we know is that Martin was seen on top of Zimmerman. The final gunshot was not witnessed. That’s what we know. ---
**Author:** ![Poochey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@Poochey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poochey)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1952 "2012-05-22T17:51:47Z")
> **[NEWLY DISCOVERED VIDEO Previously Scrubbed From YouTube Shows Trayvon Martin...](https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/newly-discovered-video-previously-scrubbed-from-youtube-shows-trayvon-martin-participating-in-local-fight-club/)** > > The Wagist and Conservative Tree House exposed video of Trayvon Martin attending and possibly refereeing a local fight club brawl in Miami. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1953 "2012-05-22T17:59:43Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [NEWLY DISCOVERED VIDEO Previously Scrubbed From YouTube Shows Trayvon Martin Participating in Local Fight Club ...Update: Video Removed By YouTube | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/newly-discovered-video-previously-scrubbed-from-youtube-shows-trayvon-martin-participating-in-local-fight-club/) Normally you narrate what you’re posting. This is a site that says there was a video of Martin at his Mother’s home engaging in some kind of street fighting. The video has been pulled. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1954 "2012-05-22T18:01:25Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > While I admire your stamina in these many threads, I do hope you copy and pasted that list. I was unaware that referendums were held in the aforementioned states and the residents had unanimously approved the CCW statutes. > Florida has what I consider to be rather liberal CCW laws. In some states, a criminal prosecution is styled, “People v. Wrongdoer.” This refers to the people of the state versus the accused. And do you know how many criminal defendants have had their cases dismissed on the grounds that the state did not have a referendum and obtain unanimous approval to proceed with the prosecution first? > [@](#): > > I wonder if in other jurisdictions, Zimmerman’s past would have contained too many red flags to be granted a permit. Stop wondering. No. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1955 "2012-05-22T18:05:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m no expert on Twitter. > > But isn’t non-standard English of some variety or other a staple of Twitter? > > And given that Twitter limits messages to some small character count (140?) can we really analogize language skills in spoken life to language skills exhibited on Twitter? That is true to a certain extent, but based on what my friend’s kids post, not as much. I think there are a lot of abbreviations and acronyms, but people use their standard vocabulary. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can download it from scribd and form your own opinion. It is too bad that Crump has done so much image management, so we don’t have balanced view of what Trayvon was like. The stuff that gets past the censorship tends to look bad [http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-Martin-s-NO-LIMIT-NIGGA-Tweets-The-Daily-Caller](http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-Martin-s-NO-LIMIT-NIGGA-Tweets-The-Daily-Caller) I’m not so sure about the tweets near the end. I think somebody hacked his account after he died. It still bothers me that Trayvon didn’t call his father instead of talking to his girlfriend. Brandy Green had lived at the Retreat for 5 years and probably knew Zimmerman. I grew up before cell phones and had a car when I was Martin’s age, but I always called in to let my parents know where I was at. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1956 "2012-05-22T18:07:05Z")
> [@Poochey](#): > > [NEWLY DISCOVERED VIDEO Previously Scrubbed From YouTube Shows Trayvon Martin Participating in Local Fight Club ...Update: Video Removed By YouTube | The Gateway Pundit | by Jim Hoft](http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/05/newly-discovered-video-previously-scrubbed-from-youtube-shows-trayvon-martin-participating-in-local-fight-club/) Youtube keeps removing the video. Here it is [ItemFix - Social Video Factory](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e73_1337581575) Disclaimer: I don’t think this is relevant to the case. It’s just funny that youtube keeps removing the video when people upload it. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1957 "2012-05-22T18:10:08Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > That is true to a certain extent, but based on what my friend’s kids post, not as much. I think there are a lot of abbreviations and acronyms, but people use their standard vocabulary. You don’t have to take my word for it, you can download it from scribd and form your own opinion. It is too bad that Crump has done so much image management, so we don’t have balanced view of what Trayvon was like. The stuff that gets past the censorship tends to look bad > > [Trayvon Martin's "NO - LIMIT - NIGGA" Tweets - The Daily Caller | PDF](http://www.scribd.com/doc/86809463/Trayvon-Martin-s-NO-LIMIT-NIGGA-Tweets-The-Daily-Caller) > > I’m not so sure about the tweets near the end. I think somebody hacked his account after he died. > > It still bothers me that Trayvon didn’t call his father instead of talking to his girlfriend. Brandy Green had lived at the Retreat for 5 years and probably knew Zimmerman. I grew up before cell phones and had a car when I was Martin’s age, but I always called in to let my parents know where I was at. What is the relevance of any of this? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1958 "2012-05-22T18:15:10Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Youtube keeps removing the video. Here it is [ItemFix - Social Video Factory](http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e73_1337581575) > > Disclaimer: I don’t think this is relevant to the case. It’s just funny that youtube keeps removing the video when people upload it. I see no way to identify anyone in that video as Trayvon Martin. More misdirection, like the “gangbanger” picture. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1959 "2012-05-22T18:33:59Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I see no way to identify anyone in that video as Trayvon Martin. More misdirection, like the “gangbanger” picture. It was too grainy to see much (sound familiar?). It should be easy to ferret out. It lists the name of the other kid in the video. Find him and the others and ask. Even if it was real I don’t think it’s admissible in court but maybe Bricker could weigh in. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1960 "2012-05-22T18:53:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is no mention of SYG in the article. She’s being charged with “open murder”, which means she has the possibility of First Degree. Not really sure what your point is. His point was to get his little talking point in. Not even related to the thread itself, just a dig at those ‘right-wing crazy gun nuts’. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125/1961 "2012-05-22T19:28:22Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > Do you have some inkling of how the mechanism of language acquisition works? Do you imagine that txtspeak is the cradle language of these kids, and they are \*unable \*to speak or understand standard English? > > Hell, I’m friends with the managing broker of the rental division of my company, and her twitter feed is full of that stuff, because she’s still in her twenties and it seems normal to her in this context. Yet she still writes perfectly fine business letters. You are aware that Trayvon’s mother works? My mother was working as a nurse when my brother was born, but she quit before I was born. Not only was my brother way behind me in school, but we don’t even speak with the same accent even when I was living in home. My ex-roommate has a mother that was born in Hawaii but still speaks English in a pigeon dialect. It was funny to listen to him call home and listen how he changes dialects when He talks to his father and mother. I know a lot of Hawaiian people that can switch from pigeon to standard but some people can’t. It is possible that Trayvon could talk in standard English, but I haven’t seen any evidence that he can. I suspect Ben Crump image management. If anybody has any evidence that I’m wrong, then please present it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=97) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-humble-opinions-and-speculation-thread/619125.md?page=99)