# Martin / Zimmerman police angle **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 15, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583 "2013-07-15T19:19:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![hmarvin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/858c86/32.png) [@hmarvin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hmarvin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/121 "2013-07-17T16:23:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The trial verdict is not in question. > > There is no reasonable basis for the killing. Teenage boys don’t attack strangers they think are following them. And the only person who says that one did is George Zimmerman, who decided for no rational reason that Trayvon Martin was a criminal just before he killed him. Actually, Zimmerman never stated Martin was a criminal, just that his behavior was suspicious.. How many people wander around in the rain without an umbrella, looking at houses, and according to Zimmerman, between houses? Since Zimmerman was parked by the side of the road, talking to the dispatcher, there was little reason for Martin to take off running when he saw Zimmerman on the phone. Zimmerman said he was returning to his truck when the confrontation begin. Multiple witnesses stated the confrontation begin west of the T, than moved south. If accurate, Zimmerman was mere seconds from his truck. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/122 "2013-07-17T16:48:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes. Because that would be an assault. Not under any law I know of. Can you cite one? Assault is an attempt to commit a battery. Do you think what Bricker described qualifies? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/123 "2013-07-17T17:16:07Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Yes. Because that would be an assault. No. It wouldn’t. An assault in Florida requires (among other things) a threat to do some physical violence to someone. If Zimmerman had been recorded on video saying to Martin, “Hey, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here – this isn’t your neighborhood, and we don’t like criminal thugs like you around here. Fucking punk! Go back to whatever crime-hole you climbed out of!” and then charged with assault, he could not be convicted. Unless, of course, the video showed him doing some act with DID constitute a threat of violence, like grabbing, hitting, pulling a gun, waving a club menacingly, or the like. Do you understand this? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/124 "2013-07-17T17:25:48Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. It wouldn’t. > > An assault in Florida requires (among other things) a threat to do some physical violence to someone. > > If Zimmerman had been recorded on video saying to Martin, “Hey, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here – this isn’t your neighborhood, and we don’t like criminal thugs like you around here. Fucking punk! Go back to whatever crime-hole you climbed out of!” and then charged with assault, he could not be convicted. > > Unless, of course, the video showed him doing some act with DID constitute a threat of violence, like grabbing, hitting, pulling a gun, waving a club menacingly, or the like. > > Do you understand this? Are you saying that Florida law requires an express threat of violence and a reasonable inference of such a threat would not constitute an assault? So if an irrational person starts cursing at you and acting like a threat, and then hits you without ever voicing a threat it would only constitute a battery and not assault and battery? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/125 "2013-07-17T18:01:17Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Are you saying that Florida law requires an express threat of violence and a reasonable inference of such a threat would not constitute an assault? So if an irrational person starts cursing at you and acting like a threat, and then hits you without ever voicing a threat it would only constitute a battery and not assault and battery? No. In your example, the irrational person is cursing _and acting like a threat._. That satisfies the requirement for an act. But when what’s at issue are words alone, the words must explicitly communicate an imminent threat. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/126 "2013-07-17T18:08:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > In your example, the irrational person is cursing _and acting like a threat._. That satisfies the requirement for an act. But when what’s at issue are words alone, the words must explicitly communicate an imminent threat. So your scenario involves Zimmerman not following Trayvon Martin and calmly saying “Hey, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here – this isn’t your neighborhood, and we don’t like criminal thugs like you around here. Fucking punk! Go back to whatever crime-hole you climbed out of!” in a way that is not threatening? I’m not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/127 "2013-07-17T18:12:19Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So your scenario involves Zimmerman not following Trayvon Martin and calmly saying “Hey, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here – this isn’t your neighborhood, and we don’t like criminal thugs like you around here. Fucking punk! Go back to whatever crime-hole you climbed out of!” in a way that is not threatening? I’m not buying it. Would you buy a scenario in which Martin makes his way back to his father’s house, turns around, comes back, and confronts Zimmerman, saying “Why are you following me?” and then Zimmerman saying “What are you doing around here?” Is that threatening? Do you believe in that scenario, Martin would be justified in using violence? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/128 "2013-07-17T18:14:01Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So your scenario involves Zimmerman not following Trayvon Martin and calmly saying “Hey, what are you doing here? You don’t belong here – this isn’t your neighborhood, and we don’t like criminal thugs like you around here. Fucking punk! Go back to whatever crime-hole you climbed out of!” in a way that is not threatening? I’m not buying it. Hurtful, superior, condescending - those lines could be read in a very irritating, snotty way… something that’s quite likely to provoke an angry response but is not threatening. So, no – not calmly saying those lines. Superciliously, dismissively, or condescendingly. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/129 "2013-07-17T18:21:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Hurtful, superior, condescending - those lines could be read in a very irritating, snotty way… something that’s quite likely to provoke an angry response but is not threatening. So, no – not calmly saying those lines. Superciliously, dismissively, or condescendingly. How about gesticulating wildly, or reaching for his holster? It’s all just hypothetical, are you just trying to say there’s some circumstance where Trayvon Martin would over-react to Zimmerman doing something that did not comprise an assault? Sure that could happen, but a rational person would assume the person who was already acting irrationally committed the assault, not the person who was minding their own business and acting perfectly rationally up to that point. ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/130 "2013-07-17T18:42:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > One would point out that, if Zimmerman had his gun aimed at Martin before Martin attacked him, one would expect that Martin would have been shot a lot sooner - that Zimmerman would probably not wait until after Martin pounded his head against the pavement several times. > Cite? > > Regards, > Shodan That assumes that Zimmerman wasn’t already quite close to Martin or that Martin didn’t pounce when Zimmerman began pulling out his weapon. Out of curiosity, how was Zimmerman’s firearm carried? Did he have an exposed holster? There’s certainly no evidence for it (or for most of the details of any of these proposed scenarios), but I would not be surprised at all if Zimmerman fumbled for his weapon, Martin saw this and reacted in his own defense to disarm Zimmerman, the struggle went to ground and Zimmerman then managed to get his finger on the trigger and fire. For those of you who are more familiar with the trial evidence, what did the experts say about the range at which Martin was shot? Was he shot at close range or from a distance? An answer to that question would certainly alter some of my speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/131 "2013-07-17T18:46:02Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > …are you just trying to say there’s some circumstance where Trayvon Martin would over-react to Zimmerman doing something that did not comprise an assault? Yes -for instance, a scenario in which Martin makes his way back to his father’s house, turns around, comes back, and confronts Zimmerman, saying “Why are you following me?” and then Zimmerman saying “What are you doing around here?” > [@](#): > > a rational person would assume the person who was already acting irrationally committed the assault We don’t need to assume anything - a witness was (allegedly) talking to Martin on the phone, and described the incident pretty much as I have said. So again - do you believe Martin would have been justified in using violence against Zimmerman in a scenario in which Martin makes his way back to his father’s house, turns around, comes back, and confronts Zimmerman, saying “Why are you following me?” and then Zimmerman saying “What are you doing around here?” Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/132 "2013-07-17T18:46:18Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > For those of you who are more familiar with the trial evidence, what did the experts say about the range at which Martin was shot? Was he shot at close range or from a distance? An answer to that question would certainly alter some of my speculation. From a couple of inches away. Or, more precisely, from a couple of inches away from the body, and with the gun in contact with Martin’s clothes. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/133 "2013-07-17T18:49:08Z")
> [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](#): > > That assumes that Zimmerman wasn’t already quite close to Martin or that Martin didn’t pounce when Zimmerman began pulling out his weapon. Your scenario was one in which Zimmerman “pulled out his weapon and aimed it at” Martin. So the weapon in your scenario was already drawn. > [@](#): > > For those of you who are more familiar with the trial evidence, what did the experts say about the range at which Martin was shot? Was he shot at close range or from a distance? An answer to that question would certainly alter some of my speculation. Martin was shot from less than eight inches away. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/134 "2013-07-17T18:57:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes -for instance, a scenario in which Martin makes his way back to his father’s house, turns around, comes back, and confronts Zimmerman, saying “Why are you following me?” and then Zimmerman saying “What are you doing around here?” We don’t need to assume anything - a witness was (allegedly) talking to Martin on the phone, and described the incident pretty much as I have said. So you believe this innocuous exchange took place and then Trayvon Martin jumped on Zimmerman for no reason? Still not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/135 "2013-07-17T19:00:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you believe this innocuous exchange took place and then Trayvon Martin jumped on Zimmerman for no reason? Still not buying it. Rachel Jeantel: “They don’t understand, they understand, ‘Oh, he would just bash, or was kill.’ When somebody bash somebody, like, blood, people, trust me, in the area I live, that’s not bashing. That’s just called “whoop-ass.” You just got your ass whooped. That’s what it is.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/136 "2013-07-17T19:06:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Rachel Jeantel: > > “They don’t understand, they understand, ‘Oh, he would just bash, or was kill.’ When somebody bash somebody, like, blood, people, trust me, in the area I live, that’s not bashing. That’s just called “whoop-ass.” You just got your ass whooped. That’s what it is.” What does that have to do with anything? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/137 "2013-07-17T19:09:08Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > So you believe this innocuous exchange took place and then Trayvon Martin jumped on Zimmerman for no reason? Who said anything about “no reason”? > [@](#): > > Still not buying it. “Nuh-uh” is not valid refutation. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/138 "2013-07-17T19:13:01Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Who said anything about “no reason”? > “Nuh-uh” is not valid refutation. > > Regards, > Shodan Nuh-uh is perfectly valid when someone doesn’t provide a reason for something they insist happened. How often have you attacked some who asked “What are you doing around here”? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/139 "2013-07-17T19:27:21Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > What does that have to do with anything? The casualness of the “ass whooping” given “in the area she lives in”. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583/140 "2013-07-17T19:29:49Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > How about gesticulating wildly, or reaching for his holster? It’s all just hypothetical, are you just trying to say there’s some circumstance where Trayvon Martin would over-react to Zimmerman doing something that did not comprise an assault? Sure that could happen, but a rational person would assume the person who was already acting irrationally committed the assault, not the person who was minding their own business and acting perfectly rationally up to that point. Would a rational person say that that conclusion is the only possible one, beyond a reasonable doubt? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/martin-zimmerman-police-angle/663583.md?page=8)